School Problems

[evelyn1503]

we have the same problem.... what i suggest doing is say like a promotional thing like having your bot out during all really big thing at your school like we had student appreciation day and the teachers were making pancakes so we threw to gather a simple but sturdy rig to hold a tray of pancakes and we drove them back and forth to the cafeteria and to the room ware tray were cooking the pancakes so you show off the robot you can do a thing ware you just randomly bing out the bot and let people drive it a round while hading fliers out withe web sites and and information on what FIRST is really a bout and you will get a couple...oh .... and you can go a round to schools who com to you school and got the and kind of do a robotics team school tour and you can do so much to promote that the amount of possible are endless so when you think of something don't be afraid to try it because you never know what might happen

[Tim Delles]

First off, never talk to your administration with an "Us vs Them" mentality or even think about feeling that way. They definitely have founded concerns..

Yes you can't walk into a meeting thinking that they are against you. Yes they may want to take funding away but it is not always that they are against you, or that it is even that person's view. But yes try getting teams in your area involved in helping you. Also make sure the administration knows what FIRST is really about. Show them what your team has done and what they had planned to do.

Good luck with this.

[DonRotolo]

Originally Posted by HRobotics

Unfortunately, our school (Havergal College in Toronto, Canada) does not fully understand FIRST or appreciate it as much as our team.

Originally Posted by SURVIVORfan44

My school has no clue what FIRST is. The only people that do know are the people that are actually on the robotics team......They have no clue of anything about or robots, the game, or the experience.

Seems to me that both of you (and anyone else in a similar situation) need to EXPLAIN to 'them' what FIRST is, how it benefits the school, community, and students. Especially students. The administration and Board are not mind readers, so the task now is to GO to a board meeting and give a short (3-5 minutes) but logical and sane presentation about FIRST.

sanddrag, Bharat, Elgin Clock and iCurtis all have excellent suggestions, as do others, but the point here is to start a dialogue with whoever 'they' are. Try to keep emotion out of it, stick to facts and issues. Any administrator, when they understand FIRST, will support it. sciguy125 has it right, you first need to find out what their concerns are, and then address those concerns.

This is the basic method for resolving anything, by the way.

Good luck & let us all know how it turns out.

Don

[Drake]

I agree that you have to talk to your administrators and work out a deal with them. Try to deal with any and all issues that may arise.

If they don't want to allow the team because of safety concerns write up a small syllabus that contains either a lecture concerning safety practices and a test to go with it, and maybe write up a liability waiver. Or, just use hand tools, and hope that it works out in the end.

If their issue is sponsorship, try asking for sponsorship from businesses from the area. My school district hasn't officially sponsored any of the teams in the district in years. We're very lucky to have corporate sponsorship from BEA Systems, and just by looking at the FRC master list you can notice that a large percentage of the teams have some form of sponsorship. Try your hand at fund raising.

Or if they have concerns over space being taken up by the team, try asking around your community for a space they might have available for the team to use. There is always someone willing to help, even if the space is small. Teams have built their robot in a space the size of the pits at the competitions, don't fret.

But the best approach is to provide evidence of how FIRST has affected your alumni, and proof of how you are taking safety into account. Talk with everyone you can and ask the member's parents to phone and talk with the appropriate members about allowing the team to continue.

[Safarley2901]

Originally Posted by SURVIVORfan44

I know EXACTLY how you feel right now. My school has no clue what FIRST is. The only people that do know are the people that are actually on the robotics team. Our conflict was that we were going to merge with another team in order to have reached our level of funds and such. By merging, this would GREATLY benefit both teams. However, our self-centered school board decided that we could not do that. They did not approve of it. I am very ashamed of our school board because not only did they let me down, they let down about 30 other people. They also let down our special needs students who help us out tremendously. They should be ashamed of themselves. They have no clue what FIRST is, because if they did, they would let us have a robotics team this year. In order to make the schoolboard mad, some of us joined the team that we were going to merge with in the first place. The school board tried to take all the credit for our robots. They have no clue of anything about or robots, the game, or the experience. It bothers me that they would interfere as much as they did when they have no clue about FIRST.

You Realize that its not up to the school what your first team does? Merge with another team anyway. First has no connection to the school, so the school has no say in the matter. As long as you have an alternate place to work with said team, you can basically tell the school "Shove It"

And for those of you who are depending on funding from your school I have one word for you FUNDRAISE . I live in a little no name town in the middle of corn fields, and a team with 30 people on it, about a 4th of them actually trying to fundraise if that, manage to raise 20,000 to 30,000 a year. Plus the cost of room and board for our trips with minimal costs to the students. Then we find the funds to go to off season competition(s) every year. It can be done. Just try harder. Best of Luck

-Team 808

[SURVIVORfan44]

Originally Posted by Don Rotolo

Seems to me that both of you (and anyone else in a similar situation) need to EXPLAIN to 'them' what FIRST is, how it benefits the school, community, and students. Especially students. The administration and Board are not mind readers, so the task now is to GO to a board meeting and give a short (3-5 minutes) but logical and sane presentation about FIRST.

Thanks for the advice from everyone. We have tried multiple attempts to explain to both the school and the schoolboard about what FIRST is. I hate to say this, but 90% of the people that live in my county are extremely simple-minded. We have tried to break it up into simple pieces. They still do not understand it the way we want them to understand it. Since students are not allowed into the meetings, we can't exactly show the schoolboard how it gives us the experience. It's just too late with kick-off next week. Its just easier to forget the hassle and join our other team. It might not be the same experience, but we still get to be involved with FIRST. I just wanted to let other teams know that they are not the only ones out there with school-related problems. (It might just make them feel a bit better).

[Safarley2901]

Originally Posted by SURVIVORfan44

Thanks for the advice from everyone. We have tried multiple attempts to explain to both the school and the schoolboard about what FIRST is. I hate to say this, but 90% of the people that live in my county are extremely simple-minded. We have tried to break it up into simple pieces. They still do not understand it the way we want them to understand it. Since students are not allowed into the meetings, we can't exactly show the schoolboard how it gives us the experience. It's just too late with kick-off next week. Its just easier to forget the hassle and join our other team. It might not be the same experience, but we still get to be involved with FIRST. I just wanted to let other teams know that they are not the only ones out there with school-related problems. (It might just make them feel a bit better).

WAIT your students are allowed into school board mettings ?!?! Thats Ridiculus

When I lived in Alexandria, VA Students were allowed, What type of bull is that. I would look into that. I really dont know how the education system runs down there anymore. But there is no reason you shouldn't be allowed into school board meetings.

[SURVIVORfan44]

Yeah, I wish there was something we could change, but the decision has been made final.

[Safarley2901]

Originally Posted by SURVIVORfan44

Yeah, I wish there was something we could change, but the decision has been made final.

Well then go ahead and merge with the other team. Your school can't stop you, or for no reason hinder you, or discourage you from going, using school related reasons. Except for getting out of school for competitions that is. In that case just get ur parents to get you out.

[SURVIVORfan44]

Originally Posted by Safarley2901

Well then go ahead and merge with the other team. Your school can't stop you, or for no reason hinder you, or discourage you from going, using school related reasons. Except for getting out of school for competitions that is. In that case just get ur parents to get you out.

That's the snag--getting out of school for a school approved absence. I have all four years of perfect attendance of high school, I never ever miss a day. But, I do get to have around 2 school approved absences if I decide to tour a college. VCU just so happens to be a college. VCU just so happens to be the college that I applied to attend next year. So...I'll just use that as my school approved absence. As for the other team members, I have no clue. I wish them luck in dealing with the whole absence from school issue.

[Safarley2901]

Get them to call out sick. They can't technically do anything to you. Or you could always get ur parents to move to Fairfax county. Alexandria was the #1 school system in the country for a while, I don't know if it still is

[Billfred]

Originally Posted by Safarley2901

Get them to call out sick. They can't technically do anything to you. Or you could always get ur parents to move to Fairfax county. Alexandria was the #1 school system in the country for a while, I don't know if it still is

OOO-GAH! OOOO-GAH! GRACIOUS PROFESSIONALISM ALERT!

Would it make your grandmother proud to know that you are skipping class on purpose, then lying about it?

[Tristan Lall]

Originally Posted by SURVIVORfan44

...Since students are not allowed into the meetings, we can't exactly show the schoolboard how it gives us the experience....

Who is allowed into the meetings? Just board members? That would hardly be very transparent.

Originally Posted by Billfred

OOO-GAH! OOOO-GAH! GRACIOUS PROFESSIONALISM ALERT!

Would it make your grandmother proud to know that you are skipping class on purpose, then lying about it?

The real ethical dilemma is whether the greater evil is skipping class under false pretenses to do something more productive, or letting the school board make a bad decision on your behalf. (That is to say, you think that it's more productive, and that they're making a bad decision, though they might disagree on both counts.) I can think of a few situations where skipping class and lying about it would be more efficaceous (for your purposes) than trying to convince an unwilling or incompetent school board—but that's not licence to make arbitrary mischief. In standing up for your needs, you have to weigh that sort of decision very carefully; is it honourable, is it legal, is it necessary, have you exhausted all simpler options? Most importantly, are you absolutely sure that you're right, and they're wrong; and is this fact demonstrable? Though civilized protest is considered an annoyance, it's generally tolerated by society; if you have to break the rules, do it cautiously and with due consideration—it's by no means the easy way to get what you feel that you deserve. And you're very probably going to get in trouble for doing it. So is the trouble worth it? That's not something that we can tell you; it's a judgment call.

For the sake of completeness, is there another option by which you might avoid the dilemma in the first place, while still getting what you want? Or worse, does the school board actually have a good, solid reason for doing what it's doing? Carefully address these points, before undertaking any sort of violation of the rules, in order to make the best of a bad situation.*

Originally Posted by HRobotics

Unfortunately, our school (Havergal College in Toronto, Canada) does not fully understand FIRST or appreciate it as much as our team. This year, we aren't doing the FRC. Recently, we've also had a conflict with them concerning power tools, which they won't let us use anymore. This means that we can't build for fun like we had originally planned to do. This also means that we may not be able to go back to FIRST next year either. Of course, the whole team is extremely upset about this. We've tried talking to the school but our questions about why they are placing these restrictions have gone unanswered. Are any other teams out there experiencing similar problems? If so, how are you dealing with it? If not, do you have any ideas?

Someone mentioned earlier that parents are the customers; frighteningly enough, this is the sad reality. (Sad, because students are not infrequently caught between their own parents and a school's administration—but that's another story....) You may be able to use this to your advantage. Call me a little cynical, but since Havergal is a private school, the connection between ongoing financial support and the parents is probably pretty obvious to the administration; I'd imagine that they'll tend to be more open to your parents' concerns, than yours.

I'm curious as to what the reasons for their power tool limitations are. I suspect liability (and therefore insurance) is partly the reason. Of course they're insured against various sorts of harm that may befall you at school; but do you have details of the policy—does it cover the things that are inherent to robotics? This information shouldn't be withheld from you (after all, the policy covers you, as a student); ask your principal directly for this (and for the name of the insurer), and see what answer you get. If their policy doesn't cover robotics, ask them what it would take to get it added. There might be an increased premium to add coverage (and you'd be on the hook for the difference), but that's better than not having a team in the first place.

If it's just a general fear of injury that prompts them to keep you away from the power tools, education is likely the answer. In this situation, you've got to make clear to them that you know what you're doing; this means, firstly, making sure that everybody actually does know what they're doing, and secondly, proving this to the school. I should hope that they will be receptive to this sort of logic—after all, they're probably as likely to lose a hand in a car accident as you are to lose a hand to an out-of-control tool, and in both cases, informed and responsible users mitigate the risk of injury. Show them that you're not at unreasonable risk, and they might relent.

The worst case is, of course, if they have some ideological reason for not supporting robotics, or technical skills in general; perhaps they think it unfeminine**, unprofessional or uneducational. We would consider these things to be totally fallacious, but how do you convince someone else of this? That's something to discuss in more detail, if this is an issue.

If nothing works out, there are many teams in the Toronto area that would certainly be open to acquiring some extra talent for the build season; don't hesitate to talk to other local teams about a "Plan B", both for the 2006 season, and for the future, if you're still at an impasse.

*Alright, I realize that this is a controversial position, but it is not outside of the realm of possibility that a school board might be so fundamentally out of touch with reality, that the best resolution to a given situation involves—after thorough examination of the options available—breaking a few rules. Look at Dover, PA, for instance....
**Havergal is a girls' school, for those who didn't know, and didn't catch the unsubtle contextual clue.

[SURVIVORfan44]

Originally Posted by Tristan Lall

Who is allowed into the meetings? Just board members? That would hardly be very transparent.

School Board members and faculty/staff. The only way students can talk directly to the schoolboard during one of their meetings is through letters. Many people write letters. We could have written a million letters and their minds would not have changed. Our school board had their minds set on having a team without the merge. If we had to do it this way (which we're not) we'd have to raise an additional amount of money very fast.

[Billfred]

Originally Posted by SURVIVORfan44

School Board members and faculty/staff. The only way students can talk directly to the schoolboard during one of their meetings is through letters. Many people write letters. We could have written a million letters and their minds would not have changed. Our school board had their minds set on having a team without the merge. If we had to do it this way (which we're not) we'd have to raise an additional amount of money very fast.

Does your state have an open meetings law? In South Carolina, anybody can attend school board meetings, not to mention get most records for just the price of copying. I can't really imagine having it any other way.