scoring in center goal from platform

[Daniel_H]

I read the game manual and didn't find anything that forbids scoring in center goals while on the platforms, but this is still haunting me
I just need to make sure because my whole idea depends on it, can anyone confirm that I can do it?

Thanks

[Jonathan Norris]

Originally Posted by Daniel_H

I read the game manual and didn't find anything that forbids scoring in center goals while on the platforms, but this is still haunting me
I just need to make sure because my whole idea depends on it, can anyone confirm that I can do it?

Thanks

Lets hope so .

[billbo911]

Originally Posted by Jonathan Norris

Lets hope so .

The field is 54 ft. long. When your robot is on the platform, I'm assuming your home platform, it will be launching from approx. 52ft. away from a goal that is elevated to 8.5 ft. This height of the gaol dictates that the range of a shot must be greater to hit it than a shot attempting to reach the same plane that it is launched from.
Using the basic equation for RANGE of a projectile and plugging in 12m/s as the velocity (max. allowed by the rules) and 45 deg. as the elevation of launch, your range will be 48.2ft. This calculation ignores all other factors influencing the flight of the ball, like friction, rotation, air movement etc. As you can see, if you play by the rules, you CAN'T hit the center target from the platform.

[Kevin Sevcik]

I believe he means from right underneath his goal, on his opponent's platform. I'm sure this is legal, but there are several caveats. 1) You still have to shoot the ball. The height limit still puts the top of your bot 7" from the bottom of the goal. I dunno how they'd rule on a jumping bot, but that's a pretty big jump. 2) You're on your opponent's platform. if you end the game their, you score points for them. More importantly, they're allowed to pin you as long as they want if you're on either of the platforms.

Not saying it's a bad idea, as I'm sure accuracy skyrockets, but there are trade-offs and risks associated with it.

[Daniel_H]

Originally Posted by billbo911

The field is 54 ft. long. When your robot is on the platform, I'm assuming your home platform, it will be launching from approx. 52ft. away from a goal that is elevated to 8.5 ft. This height of the gaol dictates that the range of a shot must be greater to hit it than a shot attempting to reach the same plane that it is launched from.
Using the basic equation for RANGE of a projectile and plugging in 12m/s as the velocity (max. allowed by the rules) and 45 deg. as the elevation of launch, your range will be 48.2ft. This calculation ignores all other factors influencing the flight of the ball, like friction, rotation, air movement etc. As you can see, if you play by the rules, you CAN'T hit the center target from the platform.

I meant to climb on the platform close to my center goal to make a close range shoot.

[billbo911]

Originally Posted by Kevin Sevcik

I believe he means from right underneath his goal, on his opponent's platform. I'm sure this is legal, but there are several caveats. 1) You still have to shoot the ball. The height limit still puts the top of your bot 7" from the bottom of the goal. I dunno how they'd rule on a jumping bot, but that's a pretty big jump. 2) You're on your opponent's platform. if you end the game their, you score points for them. More importantly, they're allowed to pin you as long as they want if you're on either of the platforms.

Not saying it's a bad idea, as I'm sure accuracy skyrockets, but there are trade-offs and risks associated with it.

I completely agree, that's why I included the caveat, "I'm assuming your home platform,".
As a team, we discussed the possibility of a jumping robot as well. We decided it really wasn't to our advantage to pursue it. I think it would most likely violate the max height rule, but that will be up to the judges, and FIRST, to decide. I wouldn't put it past a team to actually create one. I'm sure it would win a design award if it was successful, and not disqualified.

I think a jumping robot would be AWESOME!

[Rick TYler]

It's the very first idea we thought of. There are a lot of benefits to it, although, as Kevin writes, if the other team is willing to dedicate a really good pusher, they might trap you on the platform. If your robot is also a good pusher, I don't know how long a 'bot pushing up the ramp could hold you in place. A side thrust from a defending 'bot could pin you, but if you start in the center, you should be able to back down even with a 'bot pushing from the side. Would the defender want to forgo all their own scoring to do this? I dunno. Unless you are really a bad shot, it will guarantee 30 points, although that reduces to 15 net if they successfully pin you. Tricky strategy in this game...

[Kevin Sevcik]

Originally Posted by Rick TYler

It's the very first idea we thought of. There are a lot of benefits to it, although, as Kevin writes, if the other team is willing to dedicate a really good pusher, they might trap you on the platform. If your robot is also a good pusher, I don't know how long a 'bot pushing up the ramp could hold you in place. A side thrust from a defending 'bot could pin you, but if you start in the center, you should be able to back down even with a 'bot pushing from the side. Would the defender want to forgo all their own scoring to do this? I dunno. Unless you are really a bad shot, it will guarantee 30 points, although that reduces to 15 net if they successfully pin you. Tricky strategy in this game...

If they're on defense, they have every reason in the world to pin you or push you around on the platform. Likewise if they're an alliance of one pointers. The main point being that you're a sitting duck up there. A very accurate, high point scoring, sitting duck. Possibly with figurative "Push Me!" signs plastered all over you.

[Rick TYler]

Originally Posted by Kevin Sevcik

If they're on defense, they have every reason in the world to pin you or push you around on the platform. Likewise if they're an alliance of one pointers. The main point being that you're a sitting duck up there. A very accurate, high point scoring, sitting duck. Possibly with figurative "Push Me!" signs plastered all over you.

Yep. Let's say you have one of those legendary Midwest drive trains with six motors per side and six 6-inch wide, 8-inch diameter wheels with Griptanium treads. Would you risk the high-ground strategy? I don't know the right answer, but I think I'm starting to really understand the questions.

I don't think a robot coming up the ramp could easily pin one on the top of the ramp. We tried driving a 'bot up the ramps at our kick-off event, and the nose came really high before it tipped flat onto the ramp. Think of all those World War II movies where the good guys kill the big bad German tank by shooting into its soft underbelly as it comes over a berm. This was an '05 chassis, so it wasn't optimized for "ramping," but it was illustrative. You might run a really big risk coming straight up a ramp at a 'bot already on the top and ready to push you over backwards. A defensive 'bot already on top is another thing altogether.

One thing that troubles me is the idea of pushing back down the ramp and either going on top of the defensive robot, or pushing it over backwards and ending up on top of it. Either way, I think, your bot is going down sideways. Is self-righting going to be necessary this year?

[sgsdragons]

This is all very interesting, our team was also thinking about shooting form the platform. The idea of falling over as a result of trying to get off is a big deal. It will be very interesting to see what happens this year. And as for the comment about self righting mechanisims, that is very possible!!!

Josh
SGSDragons
Team Driver and Designer

[Ianworld]

I know in 2003 in Stack attack the ramp was only a 15 degree angle half of this year's angle and robot on the top playing defense would consistently knock over bots coming up. You can definitely design a robot that won't get knocked over but you'll have to have a very low center of gravity. The trick for the bot at the top of the ramp is push back at the robot as it just comes over the top. I doubt teams will be disqualified or penalized for tipping bots in such a position. Its just a very serious feild hazard that robots will need to be designed to deal with.

So yes as other people have said, you can shoot from the platform and no I don't think it will be that easy to be pinned up there with a reasonably solid drivetrain. Someteams might slip up on the lexan however, if you're going to spend time on the platform test your traction on it. In 2004 robots would slide all over the place on the HDPE using certain tread materials.

[aaeamdar]

Originally Posted by Kevin Sevcik

I believe he means from right underneath his goal, on his opponent's platform. The height limit still puts the top of your bot 7" from the bottom of the goal. I dunno how they'd rule on a jumping bot, but that's a pretty big jump.

Yeah. I am quite sure that any time your robot violiates the hight rule of 5' you get a penalty. But I'm not with NASA or anything, so don't take my word for it.

Also the angle from which you have to fire would be disadvantageous maybe.

Plus, if your robot is five feet tall all the time, and you go up a 30 degree incline, there's a good chance that you will topple over.

If you had some mechanism that extended, then you have to wait for it to extend.

Additionally, you have to convey the balls up to the top somehow.

Sorry to be so discouraging here. There are some great things about this idea, it's just that there are some disadvantages that maybe if you wanted to do this you would need to focus on working around.

[Madison]

If you have a high-capacity machine that can quickly shoot multiple balls into the center goal from atop your opponent's platform, does it really matter if they pin you? If anything, don't they want to get you off the platform?

When your offensive period ends, they'd be sacrificing scoring opportunity to keep you back there and even the odds to 2 vs. 2 on the other side of the field. If you're still stuck at the end of the match, you'd need to have scored 5+ balls through the center goal to negate their potential ramp bonus. Anything above that is gravy.

If your machine needs to be up on the platform to score in the center goal and you can't manage to get five balls in over a minute and a half, you probably ought not be up there at all.

[Ian Curtis]

Originally Posted by Kevin Sevcik

If they're on defense, they have every reason in the world to pin you or push you around on the platform. Likewise if they're an alliance of one pointers. The main point being that you're a sitting duck up there. A very accurate, high point scoring, sitting duck. Possibly with figurative "Push Me!" signs plastered all over you.

Figurative "Push Me!" sign? If your robot's got AndyMark's or another really awesome drivetrain under it's hood, why not put a real "Push Me!" sign on your robot? You'd be guaranteed to show up in several team's videos/picture galleries.

[PaPPy]

I'd suggest going for it and if you could have one of teammates bot try giving you some help until you dump your load and if you make your wheels omni direction or at least move side to side you could easily get out of a pin while on top as it is designed to fit 3 robots