2006 Autonomous Disappointment

[TimCraig]

I'm sort of disappointed that the autonomous phase was cut to only 10 seconds this year. Finally, we get a processor that's reasonably capable, we've had a couple of years to develop some experience with the PIC processors, and instead of increasing the time so we can really show off, we get our time cut. Programming the autonomous phase is one of the more difficult and time consuming parts of robot development, I think cutting back the time seems to denegrate its importance. I was hoping for at least 20 seconds if not 30.

[Eldarion]

Originally Posted by TimCraig

I'm sort of disappointed that the autonomous phase was cut to only 10 seconds this year. Finally, we get a processor that's reasonably capable, we've had a couple of years to develop some experience with the PIC processors, and instead of increasing the time so we can really show off, we get our time cut. Programming the autonomous phase is one of the more difficult and time consuming parts of robot development, I think cutting back the time seems to denegrate its importance. I was hoping for at least 20 seconds if not 30.

I am also extremely disappointed.

Don't get me wrong; this year's game looks to be quite interesting, but I do wish there were more autonomous objectives and a longer time.

[SpaceOsc]

Originally Posted by TimCraig

I'm sort of disappointed that the autonomous phase was cut to only 10 seconds this year. Finally, we get a processor that's reasonably capable, we've had a couple of years to develop some experience with the PIC processors, and instead of increasing the time so we can really show off, we get our time cut. Programming the autonomous phase is one of the more difficult and time consuming parts of robot development, I think cutting back the time seems to denegrate its importance. I was hoping for at least 20 seconds if not 30.

Originally Posted by Eldarion

I am also extremely disappointed.

Don't get me wrong; this year's game looks to be quite interesting, but I do wish there were more autonomous objectives and a longer time.

You two should listen to the lastest FIRSTpodcast #5, it talks about this in a way you might of not considered. auton being shorten for a good reason and how its way more important than ever.

[henryBsick]

Auton being shortened gives all of the coders out there MORE time to show of. Score 40 (30+10) points every match .

[Donut]

The shortening is not terrible. Yes, we have 5 seconds less than last year, but you start right in the middle of the field, which means it will take you less time to get anywhere in the middle of the field than it would if you were starting at your end of the field. As another effect of the middle starting, there are more defensive opportunities (you start closer to your opponents) for autonomous than in the past. There is also no need to have a large moving arm that takes more time to move than a shooter could take to get up to speed/loaded, and the balls can be fired more rapidly than tetras could be placed on goals (so more scoring opportunity). Lastly, it adds a new challenge; will you have enough time to shoot all 10 balls if you spend x amount of time finding or reaching your target?

[MichaelGoldfarb]

The shortening was deliberate. This year it is very important to pick up as many points as possible this year because the team that wins will get two back to back periods of continuous offense. If FIRST were to leave the autonomous operation period any longer it would make the process of scoring a large amount of points that much easier.

[varcsscotty]

I think it makes auton much much harder. Scoring 10 balls in 10 seconds will be some feat. Especially with defensive robots all around.

[Dave Flowerday]

I'd guess that since autonomous was introduced in 2003, less than 10% of the teams I've seen used more than 10 seconds worth of the autonomous period. In fact, in many cases the real autonomous action was over in 5 seconds or so. Think of the wall of bins in 2003, or knocking the ball off the tee in 2004, or dropping the hanging tetra in 2005. In the vast majority of matches that I've watched, the last 7-10 seconds of autonomous had nothing going on, and really I felt this took away some of the excitement of the game. Perhaps FIRST has observed the same thing as me and shortened autonomous to a) make the matches more exciting and b) shorten the length of a match in hopes of being able to run more matches.

[KenWittlief]

If you compare the clock / instruction cycle period of a microprocessor to a human heart beat, one second to a µP running at 1MHz is like 11.6 hrs.

The faster a processor is running, the more it can do in a shorter period of time. Ten seconds to your robot is like 116 hours to your human player (the amount of time it would take a human to do the same number of instructions or calculations)

A well designed robot should be able to acquire the upper target, get within range, and fire 10 balls, all within 5 seconds or less.

So what will it do with its remaining 5 seconds (58 hours in robot-time) ?

(the hokey pokey would be impressive :^)

[billbo911]

Originally Posted by TimCraig

I'm sort of disappointed that the autonomous phase was cut to only 10 seconds this year. Finally, we get a processor that's reasonably capable, we've had a couple of years to develop some experience with the PIC processors, and instead of increasing the time so we can really show off, we get our time cut. Programming the autonomous phase is one of the more difficult and time consuming parts of robot development, I think cutting back the time seems to denegrate its importance. I was hoping for at least 20 seconds if not 30.

If I'm not mistaken, we really have as much as 90 sec. for Autonomous. (Well OK, 10 Autonomous + 2 40 sec. "hybrid" periods). I know, you think I'm off my nut. Fine, but think about it. There is no way you can track the upper target manually with any real success! You have to have it done by sensors and processor all the time while on offence. Add to that the initial 10 sec. fully autonomous, and you have a real programming challenge.
Besides, 10 sec. to gain a serious point advantage is one heck of a challenge.

My suggestion, don't look at it as a disappointment, look at it as a real challenge to you as a programmer to make maximum points in minimum time.

[cbolin]

Hi,
Coding your bot to drive and shoot in 10 seconds is really challenging...especially if you want to shoot at 100% (10 of 10 balls). This is far more difficult than raising a tetra and sitting it on the center goal like we did a few times last year in autonomous.

Consider this aspect...Software assist during the 120 second drive time. Example:
1. Laptop computer with graphic display connected to Dashboard serial port.
2. Camera x,y data being used to move cross-hairs on laptop.
3. Gunner (human) uses the crosshairs on laptop display to move turrent azimuth and elevation to close proximity. 1 or 2 tracer rounds to allow human to get to the target...and then feed the balls into the target. One team is allowing for loading of over 25 balls.
4. Drive team can be in opposing corner from the robot shooting diagonally while the bot is moving.

Squeezing the most useful information from the sensors with good code is much more challenging this year. Add in X,Y sensors with Yaw rate sensor to dead-reckon is cool.

So, think of a 130 second autonomous mode with driver assist for 120 seconds. :-)

Regards,
ChuckB

[ebmonon36]

Originally Posted by TimCraig

Finally, we get a processor that's reasonably capable,

That's how FIRST works. Just when they start to make things easier, they do something to make it harder. They give us all this great stuff in the kit and we could do all these wonderful things to show off the talent of our team - and then they give us restraints such as weight, size, and time. There is never enough time to do everything you want to do in FIRST.

Eric

[Kevin Watson]

Originally Posted by KenWittlief

A well designed robot should be able to acquire the upper target, get within range, and fire 10 balls, all within 5 seconds or less.

Hint to the teams: If the green light is within the field of view of the camera at the start of autonomous period, the camera can acquire, track and lock onto the target in a second or less. If you move your robot during autonomous period, don't go faster than than the camera can track (which is pretty fast).

-Kevin

[chris31]

Originally Posted by Kevin Watson

Hint to the teams: If the green light is within the field of view of the camera at the start of autonomous period, the camera can acquire, track and lock onto the target in a second or less. If you move your robot during autonomous period, don't go faster than than the camera can track (which is pretty fast).

-Kevin

How fast can the camera track. Do i need to write some code to make it be able to track better. I havent yet set up the camera so i dont know how fats it really reacts.

[Rick Thornbro]

How many matches last year that were over in less than 10 seconds.

I feel that auton is critical this year, teams could win or lose a match within 10 seconds. Much more fun for us programmers.