When does a center high goal really get scored?

[dhitchco]

It is stipulated by FIRST that the "ball counting" mechanism for the high center goal is located inside the chute AFTER the ball(s) pass through the opening, down the sloped ramp, and enter the vertical chute.

Therefore, if the balls get jammed on the ramp, by the chains, etc. it would not make sense for your team to shake the goal/tube since those balls will then score for the opposite alliance.

BUT....if your alliance was out of balls, it might make sense to go ahead and shake-down the opponent's balls (allowing them to score 3 points each) so you can get new "ammunition" to reload your own robots.....

The robot itself can't "grab, grasp, grapple, or attach to any field structure per <G19>, but I don't see anything about human players, drivers, etc touching, shaking, etc the field elements/goals. Rule <G39> says that the humans can't "interfere" with scoring, but this example actually "helps" scoring.....just does so for the other alliance!.....hmmm?

ps: for this center goal, I believe there is a "ball collector" (garbage can) at the foot-end of the chute instead of balls just dumping on the floor. At least, that what the pics from Manchester kickoff showed. But it's not fully defined in section 3.2.3.

[Kevin Sevcik]

Originally Posted by dhitchco

It is stipulated by FIRST that the "ball counting" mechanism for the high center goal is located inside the chute AFTER the ball(s) pass through the opening, down the sloped ramp, and enter the vertical chute.

Therefore, if the balls get jammed on the ramp, by the chains, etc. it would not make sense for your team to shake the goal/tube since those balls will then score for the opposite alliance.

BUT....if your alliance was out of balls, it might make sense to go ahead and shake-down the opponent's balls (allowing them to score 3 points each) so you can get new "ammunition" to reload your own robots.....

The robot itself can't "grab, grasp, grapple, or attach to any field structure per <G19>, but I don't see anything about human players, drivers, etc touching, shaking, etc the field elements/goals. Rule <G39> says that the humans can't "interfere" with scoring, but this example actually "helps" scoring.....just does so for the other alliance!.....hmmm?

ps: for this center goal, I believe there is a "ball collector" (garbage can) at the foot-end of the chute instead of balls just dumping on the floor. At least, that what the pics from Manchester kickoff showed. But it's not fully defined in section 3.2.3.

Actually, scoring 3 pointers for your opponents so you can get more balls is a poor move. If you score a 3 point ball for your opponent, the BEST you can do is score that same ball as a 3-pointer. If you miss, you've got a net loss. Heh. I've been trying to explain to the students that it's a bad thing if you've got lots of balls in your human player station. And that depending on human player reloading means you're basically playing catch up, since the opposing alliance has already scored points with the ball you're planning on using to score.

[Ashley Christine]

Well, you can look at this in two ways.

A) No alliance is going to get enough balls into the center goal to jam it

or

B) FIRST already thought of the problem, and the mechanisms in the goal will work out any problems [such as the slight slope to the hole where it also gets scored]

Thats just my opinion.

[Jon K.]

Originally Posted by Ashley Christine

No alliance is going to get enough balls into the center goal to jam it

You would actually be quite suprised, after just a few shots after the GDC was releasing the balls into the goals in the very beginning of showing off the game, the balls were indeed getting caught up on that ramp.

[Kelvin Ng]

At the end of each game, the refs will probbaly just count the number of jammed balls and award the points to the alliance that scored them. It's not really fair if one team loses because its balls get jammed.

[Bharat Nain]

Originally Posted by Kelvin Ng

At the end of each game, the refs will probbaly just count the number of jammed balls and award the points to the alliance that scored them. It's not really fair if one team loses because its balls get jammed.

The balls also need to be circulated. If a ball is jammed, it could be a disadvantage to one of the alliances.

[Dorienne]

"Helping" with the scores is the same thing as "interfering". I agree with Ashley, FIRST already has solutions to these problems, I wouldn't worry about it. The counter will count the balls going through, I'm sure it doesn't count all the way down in the chute. Makes no sense to me.

[Andrew Blair]

Yep, I would imagine that any stuck balls would be counted as scores. They obviously did not bounce out of the goal, which is what the rule is intended for. Any mechanical mishaps after the ball has stayed in the goal are superfluous to the scores.

[dhitchco]

Ok,
Be careful to re-read rule <G05>. The actual "counter" is in the vertical chute AFTER the ball goes through the circular opening and down the ramp...

So, think-through the following scenarios:

1) Does a top center goal "count" if the ball crosses the "plane" of the front face of the circular hole and then somehow bounces back out? NO...according to rule <G05> But, in hockey, the goal counts and is humanly-scored as soon as it breaks the plane of the goalie's net even if it ricochets back out. Yes, in FIRST, the chains are supposed to "trap" the ball and send it down the ramp/chute.

2) Does a top center goal "count" if a ball or multiple balls are stuck on the ramp before they get to the vertical tube, which contains the counting mechanism? NO...according to rule <G05> since it hasn't been officially counted at that point If a team rapid-fires balls into the top-center goal, there's a good possiblity of a jam-up on the ramp which causes TWO things to happen:
---the shooting alliance doesn't register a score
---the other alliance doesn't get to receive the balls to re-put into play

3) Lastly, if the ball is "in the air" or is "in the goal, but on the ramp" BEFORE it gets to the counting mechanism....AND the end-of-game horn blows, does the shot count? Again, the answer is NO...according to rule <G05> since the ball has not exited through the chute and the counting mechanism hasn't yet seen the ball. But, this is different than a last-second at-the-buzzer shot in basketball or other sports....Hmmmm?

I'd suggest that a neutral party (field judge) be standing behind each end-alliance with a stick to make sure that the balls flow THROUGH the center goal system, thus benefitting BOTH alliances keeping balls in play.

[Lil' Lavery]

Originally Posted by dhitchco

3) Lastly, if the ball is "in the air" or is "in the goal, but on the ramp" BEFORE it gets to the counting mechanism....AND the end-of-game horn blows, does the shot count? Again, the answer is NO...according to rule <G05> since the ball has not exited through the chute and the counting mechanism hasn't yet seen the ball. But, this is different than a last-second at-the-buzzer shot in basketball or other sports....Hmmmm?

I have been told by my father that at least during the autonomous phase there has been a built in few second "buffer zone" to allow any balls to clear the air, and Id also assume so at the end of the game.

[Stu Bloom]

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery

I have been told by my father that at least during the autonomous phase there has been a built in few second "buffer zone" to allow any balls to clear the air, and Id also assume so at the end of the game.

For at least the past few years the final score has not been determined until after all robots and field elements come to rest AFTER the end of the match. I don't see anything in the rules this year that would change that scoring approach.

[Taylor]

Originally Posted by Kevin Sevcik

I've been trying to explain to the students that it's a bad thing if you've got lots of balls in your human player station. And that depending on human player reloading means you're basically playing catch up, since the opposing alliance has already scored points with the ball you're planning on using to score.

On the other hand, balls in your human player station are balls they cannot use to score again. So when you're in the defensive period, it would be in your best interest to keep the balls in the goal than give them an opportunity to rescore. Unless you've got a 100% chance of putting it directly into your (alliance's) robot....

[artdutra04]

You can see the sensor right at the top of the chute in this picture. I'm pretty sure that in addition to the sensor that counts the balls as they drop into the cute, there are light sensors that run along the ramp inside the goal to see if there is balls on the ramp. If there is, they allow the game computers to continue counting the score for the center goal for a five second grace period.

So if autonomous ends, and you have balls in the center goal but not yet down the chute, the balls will have five seconds to try to get into the chute and become scored. Also, I am not 100% sure about this, but if the sensors along the length of the ramp see any balls, they will not start the second period of the game until the five second grace period has passed (since the balls will still count for autonomous, and the alliances might not know who goes on defense/offense until all the balls are scored).

[Stu Bloom]

Don't forget that, except for the balls that start in your alliance station (and those missed shots that fly over your head), all of the balls in your posession have already been scored by your opponents. You've got to get them back in play so you can work to outscore them. Remember, during your defensive period you have a "backbot" that can accumulate balls and be ready to score as soon as you go offensive again.

[Taylor]

Originally Posted by Stu Bloom

Don't forget that, except for the balls that start in your alliance station (and those missed shots that fly over your head), all of the balls in your posession have already been scored by your opponents. You've got to get them back in play so you can work to outscore them. Remember, during your defensive period you have a "backbot" that can accumulate balls and be ready to score as soon as you go offensive again.

Understood, but if you're putting balls back into play while on defense, they would be fair game to be re-scored by the opposition.