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Unread 15-01-2006, 16:30
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Re: Fully autonomous robots?

I don't think an excellent robot would come of fully autonomous. It is hard enough to make stuff accurate in FLL with a decent selection of sensors, and in FRC it would be harder because although you have more sensors you also, in this case, face unexpected field changes and strategy.

Strategy would be the hardest to accomplish with autonomous.
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Unread 15-01-2006, 17:02
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Re: Fully autonomous robots?

I had plans on doing this since last november when an alumni from our team chalenged me saying a fully autonomous robot would never survive in first. He did say that a pannel for the "driver" with general tasks, such as buttons for say "avoid all objects", "play defence", "shoot at will" and so on would constitute as still being fully autonomous. Which is exactly what I plan on doing with our team... however to this point one thing seems to be stoping me... TIME(as I am a lone programmer).

Now as I am sure you picked up I think it is feasible. and things a robot could do better: keeping away from penalties for one... as it would be easy to program in preventive measures from getting them.
Now the other thing I will want to include is a manual override system for tougher matches. or when we are in a pickle.



Oh yeah one more thing... is there anyway that the robot could remember information, ie a robot that improves as matches go by...

and last tracking a sphere isn't to hard, already have had some success with it and the green light.
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Unread 15-01-2006, 17:24
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Re: Fully autonomous robots?

Quote:
Originally Posted by d.courtney
I had plans on doing this since last november when an alumni from our team chalenged me saying a fully autonomous robot would never survive in first.
The doubt of others is the best inspiration.

Quote:
Originally Posted by d.courtney
Now as I am sure you picked up I think it is feasible. and things a robot could do better: keeping away from penalties for one... as it would be easy to program in preventive measures from getting them.
Now the other thing I will want to include is a manual override system for tougher matches. or when we are in a pickle.
Of course. Any system like this should have a good level of redundancy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by d.courtney
Oh yeah one more thing... is there anyway that the robot could remember information, ie a robot that improves as matches go by...
I think you are thinking about a sort of Artificial Intelligence/Machine Learning system. This would be severely stretching the limits of any mid-priced microcontroller. But, you could use the EEPROM to store data. Kevin Watson has code to do that at http://www.kevin.org/frc
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Unread 15-01-2006, 17:31
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Re: Fully autonomous robots?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike
I think you are thinking about a sort of Artificial Intelligence/Machine Learning system. This would be severely stretching the limits of any mid-priced microcontroller. But, you could use the EEPROM to store data. Kevin Watson has code to do that at http://www.kevin.org/frc
yeah, a bit, but that would be more for a project I do next summer, just something I have been wondering about.

btw, are you attempting for the fully atonomous robot mike?
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Unread 15-01-2006, 17:50
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Re: Fully autonomous robots?

Quote:
Originally Posted by d.courtney
yeah, a bit, but that would be more for a project I do next summer, just something I have been wondering about.

btw, are you attempting for the fully atonomous robot mike?
Ahh, ok then.

I would love to work on a fully autonomous robot. Whether or not I do comes down to a team decision. To be perfectly honest, I think it will be hard to convince my team to relinquish the beloved CH Flightsticks.

However, if I can't do it in FIRST, I'd probably do it outside of FIRST. I just need to think of a cool application. Having a robot autonomously navigating my backyard isn't very fun, so suggestions are welcome.
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Unread 15-01-2006, 17:59
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Re: Fully autonomous robots?

hmm my team seemed much more willing, all they said was "If you can do it we will use it"... so if you'd do it either way wheather in or out of first, you should code as if it will be used, and if it is good I am sure your team or any for that matter would be willingfor it (just give them manual override so they can play some of the matches) because it is quite an impressive thing, which would garuntee the inovation award, and its just plain cool... correct me if i am wrong but I think it would be a first in FIRST. and I for one would like to be apart of it... besides you have to admit this is the best year in a while to have fully autonomous code, since the shoting has to be autonomous anyway.
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Unread 15-01-2006, 18:10
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Re: Fully autonomous robots?

A fully automonous robot really would not happen unless there was advantages to it. Here is an idea that if FIRST applied to a future game, many teams would seriously think about a fully autonomous robot.

All robots start off the match in auto mode like normal and they will stay in auto mode unless the drivers of the robot press a button similar to the e-stop in the player station. When this button is pressed, the robot switchs to manual control and cannot be switched back. The advantage they could add to auto mode is that any points scored by a robot in auto would be doubled. This would encourage teams to stay in auto mode as long as possible, even the whole match, and be rewarded for being so.
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Unread 15-01-2006, 18:33
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Re: Fully autonomous robots?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike
Ahh, ok then.

I would love to work on a fully autonomous robot. Whether or not I do comes down to a team decision. To be perfectly honest, I think it will be hard to convince my team to relinquish the beloved CH Flightsticks.

However, if I can't do it in FIRST, I'd probably do it outside of FIRST. I just need to think of a cool application. Having a robot autonomously navigating my backyard isn't very fun, so suggestions are welcome.
Make an autonomous snowblower.
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Unread 15-01-2006, 18:54
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Re: Fully autonomous robots?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Bottiglieri
Make an autonomous snowblower.
Haha, I'll go ask my dad if I can rip apart our new $1,100 snowblower
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Unread 16-01-2006, 21:38
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Re: Fully autonomous robots?

and if you did make an autonomous snowblower you'd want some proximity sensors just in case little kids ar playing in its way... that wouldn't be too pretty
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Unread 18-01-2006, 19:30
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Re: Fully autonomous robots?

I think that partial autonomous, or perhaps better phrased, driver augmentation is the perfect, and indeed key component of this year's game. I think that especially with shooting, the driver needs to be able to just hit a "shoot" button, and have the robot auto-fire if in range.

Furthermore, I think that the ideal system is like a nice glass aircraft . . . the pilot still flys, but does not have to worry about individual settings like mixture or prop, instead having the computer manage those for a requested "power."
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Unread 18-01-2006, 21:15
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Re: Fully autonomous robots?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike
Ahh, ok then.

I would love to work on a fully autonomous robot. Whether or not I do comes down to a team decision. To be perfectly honest, I think it will be hard to convince my team to relinquish the beloved CH Flightsticks.

However, if I can't do it in FIRST, I'd probably do it outside of FIRST. I just need to think of a cool application. Having a robot autonomously navigating my backyard isn't very fun, so suggestions are welcome.
What you need to build is a people follower. Use an infrared camera to seek out moving heat signatures, then keep it at a safe distance, while still inciting curiosity. Keep it in your front yard, or close, not an attack robot...
It would be really neat to walk down the street and notice a robot "watching" you, by itself. The hard part's going to be the algorithm that lets it run when it's being stolen!
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Unread 18-01-2006, 21:32
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Re: Fully autonomous robots?

While I've thought about this before, and in each year our team increased the amount of autonomy involved, the problem is in the limitations posed by FIRST.

Too little money. Too little time. Too few motors. Too little battery. Too small a processor.

If all that were not an issue, then I have no doubts that a fully-autonomous robot would work well.

The problem is that FIRST allows you four of a really powerful computer when you run your robot, a computer than can react to all sorts of stimuli - vision, sound, the score of the match. It has built in feedback controls and is powered by coffee and donuts.

Four living, breathing, thinking people are tough to beat.
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Unread 18-01-2006, 21:34
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Re: Fully autonomous robots?

I think that a strong alliance could win against a weaker one with properly implemented autonomy.
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Unread 18-01-2006, 21:37
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Re: Fully autonomous robots?

Quote:
Originally Posted by phrontist
I think that a strong alliance could win against a weaker one with properly implemented autonomy.
You don't say!

It would really depend how weak. If they couldn't score, maybe. Also depends on how dynamic your autonomous is. It would be rather easy to put you in a corner if you didn't know it was happening...
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