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#16
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Re: Ramming and Hitting
i understand that hitting another robot with a running start is illegal, but what about during autonomus mode?
What if your robot and another are pre programed to go to the same spot? the faster robot will get there first and get hit by the second robot going at there top speed and since there is no human control there is no way to stop it from happening. So my question is will there still be a ramming penalty if it happens in autonomus mode? ![]() |
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#17
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Re: Ramming and Hitting
this first became an issue in the stack attack game, when four robots were trying to hit the wall in the center of the ramp as fast (soon) as possible.
in most cases, if two bots met at the same time there was a stack of plastic boxes between them. this year you could definately have more than one bot trying to get to the same position on the field as fast (soon) as possible. Its going to be up to your team to decide if you want to send your bot 'out there', whether your bot can take it or not. If you have a flimsy bot you could stay in the starting position until auton is over. I dont see any reason why bots should be penalized for collisions in auton mode. As a last resort, theres always the kill switch at the drivers station (if you think your bot is about to be destroyed) |
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#18
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Re: Ramming and Hitting
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As with all past rules there's no guarantee that it applies this year but it seems like common sense. |
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#19
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Re: Ramming and Hitting
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First off, I appreciate and even agree (in an ideal world) with your position. However... I would have to argue that, without threat of penalties, someone (somewhere) can (and will) design a robot to seek out opponents using ultrasonic sensors whose sole purpose in autonomous would be to "kill" the other robots. One might even conceive of a vision tracking system which homes in on the bicycle flags or LED clusters we must use... I must side with Al Skierkiewicz on this one... "I'll know it when I see it." Occasional, and sometimes intense, contact should be allowed and expected by all robot designers. However, repeated and flagrant use of a "killer autonomous" routine should not be tolerated. In order to enforce against this quite ungracious and unprofessional strategy, a no-ramming rule for autonomous is, unfortunately, required. It is easier for a Judge to overlook the occasional collision than it is to prosecute a team which has realized a "killer autonomous" routine because the rules said it was OK. JMHO, Mike |
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#20
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Re: Ramming and Hitting
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I believe this is incorrect. According to <R35>, the only constraint on the placement of the bumpers is that they must be between 2.5 and 8.5 inches high. Also, this question in the Q&A seems to imply they are still legal outside the starting area. |
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#21
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Re: Ramming and Hitting
Dave and Mike,
normally teams will have several auton routines that they can select at the start of a match. For this reason you would normally have no way of knowing where your opponents robots will be during auton mode, therefore you could not intentionally 'program' your robot to ram someone elses bot with the intention of causing damage (normally). as a result you will see bot collisions - possibly full speed collisions as a result of bots trying to get into a particular field position. As long as contact is limited to the bumper zones (a robot does not pull out a javalin!) there should be no foul or penalty. as for someone designing a robot to seek and destroy during auton mode, that is definately an exception - I think it would be obvious if a robot tracks other bots in every match and repeatedly backs up and rams them. In that case, definately DQ them for the entire event. But I got $100 here that says you will not see a FIRST team design a robot for that purpose. |
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#22
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Re: Ramming and Hitting
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Of course there's the possibility of accidental collisions (possibly violent) because you don't know where the other guy is going, and this should not be penalized. However, if it is apparent that a robot's autonomous was designed with the intention of running into another robot then the rule should apply (and that was what was communicated in the past). A robot that drives around aimlessly on the field at high speed with no intention of scoring might be an example of this. |
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#23
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Re: Ramming and Hitting
You should be aware that refs take note of any team that is being borderline aggressive, to the point of writing down their team number in a special form that is provided. That team is then given special attention the rest of the competition to make sure they don't cross the line.
Caveat agrestis |
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#24
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Re: Ramming and Hitting
Well all i can say is you have to be able to take a hit as Woody himself said "you have to be robust" or something along that line. I think teams will see a robot that can play killer defence will be better than a good shooter.
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#25
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I only opened this thread because I was horrified at the topic title line.
The words (and all thoughts) of "ramming" and "hitting" should be stricken from everyon'e vocabulary, brain, mental image, etc. This will only be my 2nd year in FIRST (having seen three regionals and the championship last year) and I was VERY IMPRESSED with the "full contact" but "graceful" play from all teams and I'm sure it will stay that way. The terms of "Bumping" and "pinning" are pretty-well understood....... By the way, we have a secretly-stored paintball hidden in our robot and if you attack us by "hitting" or "ramming" we'll deploy our secret weapon thus covering your robot's camera with thick, slimy goo forcing your robot to go into wild self-destruct gyrations on the field and end up in a pile of smoking rubble.. get the point now.....ha, ha (this is fun) |
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#26
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Re: Ramming and Hitting
There has never been, and probably never will be, sound strategic backing for full speed ramming. In the past there have been objects midfield (like the platform in '04 and the ramp in '03) that prevent long distance high speed ramming so it wasn't much of an issue. Last year, the way to win was to be an offensively minded team, although first week regionals tended to turn into an "OMG that guy can cap!11!! Hit, hit hit!!" in the Qualifiers. This year, if you've got enough distance to high speed long distance ram, you're in the wrong place to begin with, except for maybe the end of the match, but even then you shouldn't hit becuase you've just unloaded a ton of balls and have just enough time to get atop the ramp. Not to mention after a high speed long distance ram, you'll do damage to your robot, and you'll be facing in some odd direction.
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#27
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Re: Ramming and Hitting
The rules I said I'd reference earlier:
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#28
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Re: Ramming and Hitting
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I see that as long as you do not hit outside the hit zone you can try to move robots to the ramp for points. I see it will be very hard to blame a robot that tips you over. you can't have more than a 10 degree angle on the robot, so if a robot that has a flat surface and pushes you and you flip how can you blame that team for flipping you. You need to make a robot that does not tip over if being pushed. About seeking out robots in the auto mode, once again you are trying to stop them from scoring. so make sure your robot can take a Hit. if a robot does back up and hit again that would be wrong. but if a robot does push you and keeps pushing you in auto mode that should be allowed. Every robot has the choice of putting on Bumpers. You get 15lbs more so I think FIRST knows robot will hit and hit often. |
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#29
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Re: Ramming and Hitting
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About the second point: Yes, be sure your robot can take a hit. Don't be the one giving the hitting, but build to take one of your old robots hitting you at full throttle (if they still run). |
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#30
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Re: Ramming and Hitting
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1. The possibility of penalties. Even if you think you can slide by, it's better not to push this particular envelope. 2. Newton's laws. For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. If over the course of the day, say you ram each opponent thrice per game, and you play 5 rounds. That means your opponent (and possible future alliance partner) will have had three direct hits from you, while your bot has sustained 45 collisions. Most people who punch walls come away with broken hands. 3. Bracket pairings. If you're very aggressive (in a bad way) and maybe landed a few clean licks on a very high-placing robot, chances are they'll look somewhere else when choosing partners for the finals. I don't care how many buttons and beads you hand out, if your robot is not sportsmanlike, don't be surprised when you're watching the finals from the nosebleed seats. |
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