Flag Burners

[Tureyhall]

first of all, don't get mad at me, and this is SOLEY my opinion and not my team's.

i feel that you're over-reacting. a flag is nothing more than a peice of colored cloth. it's what the flag SYMBOLIZES that's important. if you'd let me make an analogy, you're acting as if the flag was the berlin wall, when it's really more like the statue of liberty. let me explain:

the berlin wall actually served a physical purpose, namely seperating east and west germany. the tearing down of it not only was symbolic, it also physically allowed people to travel between the two halves of germany.

on the other hand, the statue of liberty is merely symbolic. if we were to tear down the statue of liberty, it would upset people, sure, but it wouldn't destroy the IDEAS and PRINCIPLES that it stands for.

so when he brags about burning the flag, just remind him that even if he burned EVERY american flag (an impossible task), the owners of those flags would still hold the principles in their heart.

on the other hand, you could always remind him that the border between America and Canada isn't nearly secure enough to prevent millions of American Republicans from entering Canada, spreading out, finding him, and shooting him. Dead.

[ida_noeman]

Originally Posted by Tureyhall

i feel that you're over-reacting. a flag is nothing more than a peice of colored cloth. it's what the flag SYMBOLIZES that's important.

However, showing hate of anyone's values isn't right. Although you might not be "hurting" anyone, it's the equivalent of spitting in their face. I feel sad for your Canadian friend, that he is proud of it.

[Eugenia Gabrielov]

This is a pretty intense issue. My opinion is close to Neha's, but I have a slight recommendation on how you could handle it a different way.

I don't think it's appropriate to burn a flag, but before being so quick to slam him into a category, you may try speaking to him about this. I realize it means a lot to you, and I respect it, but the best way to resolve this conflict is through education.

Explain to him that you respect he has a personal opinion, but ask him to explain it. I have travelled abroad many times, and I know that in many foreign countries the opinion of America is not as good as people in this country think it is. However, he may have a particular reason for behaving this way, and perhaps if this reason is fixable by another action you could recommend that. As for your lady friend, try to explain how much this means to you.

[Mike]

Originally Posted by Tureyhall

a flag is nothing more than a peice of colored cloth.

A Swastika is only six black lines in a certain orientation. By burning the symbol is in itself a symbol that you wish to "burn" the ideas and tangible assets of what that symbol represents.

Do I think flag burning should be legal? Absolutely.

Do I respect those that burn flags in a dishonorable manor? Not a bit.

If my friend were to burn an American flag, that person would no longer be my friend. To disagree with a country and attempt to change it for the better is an honorable thing to do, but simply saying "I do not like this country so I will symbolize it burning." is horrid.

I do not agree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.

-Voltaire

[KenWittlief]

wow Mike! you really nailed it!

Its not the cloth or the colors, its what the flag represents, our country, its history and everyone who lives here. Stand in public and tell the world how much you hate America and you are no friend of mine either.

I had two flags. One was a Nazi submarine flag, about 8 feet long that my father brought home from Germany. He was in Patton's 3rd army, and fought in the battle of the bulge. I inherited it when he died. After having it for a few years I really didn't want it in my home. I hated what it stood for. I hated the crimes what were committed under the Nazi flag. I think it would have been valuable to a collector, and I thought of selling it, but I did not want it to end up in the hands of some neo-nazi as his new prized possession. For the last 18 years it has been rotting at the bottom of a landfill somewhere in Iowa. I threw it out with the trash.

Now I only own one flag. The one that covered by fathers coffin at his funeral. I fly it proudly over my home on July 4th and on memorial day. If anyone tries to burn that flag they will be leaving my house in an ambulance.

(my 3000th post on CD! Cool)

[skimoose]

I'm all for freedom of speech, its guaranteed under the Constitution of this great country. So I would suspect that flag burning would be a exersize in freedom of speech,... maybe.

However, nearly all of you have missed one large symbol of this flag except for Ken's last post (and Al's post too). The millions of veterans who paid the ultimate sacrifice defending this country.

I find it ironic that this person thinks things are grevious enough to burn our flag. For nearly 200 years Canada and the US have shared the longest undefended border in the world. Canadian and US military personnel have fought and died side by side several times (and I would expect that this mutual defense will continue for many years to come). So while this person is Canadian and doesn't like some policies being carried out at the moment, he finds it acceptable to dishonor both American and Canadian veterans (as well as UK, Australian, and other British Commonwealth veterans) who have repeatedly allied for mutual defense.

My only response to this person would be to flatly state, "How many of your relatives returned home safely from conflict because of the sacrifice of Americans". There is a real possiblity that this person wouldn't even be here today, if it weren't for the courage and bravery of an American.

[mechanicalbrain]

You know this exact discussion occurred among some friends of mine a couple weeks ago. I feel on a personal level that a person can have any ideology they wish, as long as it's not enforced on others. The most important thing is you have your ideals and won't waver on them. Our taboos and moral codes are determined by our society. I have been privileged enough to see many other cultures and their beliefs, the variety and differences between them can be staggering. On the flip side such neutralism is almost an impossibility. We live in a world where people kill each other, and yes burn flags, over their beliefs. I guess the hardest point is where do you draw the line and on what side do you stand on.

Just on a side note, while you detest his action, try and understand his reasons. It won't make the action right (or in my line of thinking wrong either) but by looking at a persons reasons you open yourself to a way of life you might have not been privy to before, thus growing as a person. It takes courage to stand up for your beliefs, it takes wisdom to learn from others beliefs. Ultimately whatever you decide will be the right answer for you. Sorry I can't answer your question in a yes or no form but if I did I would be telling you my beliefs instead of encouraging you to support your own.

[Bemis]

I think I agree with the idea that burning the flag represents a wish to destroy what it symbolizes. I believe that by burning a symbol of something, you renounce your belief in what that symbol represents. If they have a real, good reason to do this, then so be it. However, they had better not come to me and tell me that it's their right to free speech to do so, for in my eyes, they just burned away that right. I would also like to wonder why this person, who is, as said, a Canadia citizenn, would burn the flag of a nation he is not resident of. What has he to gain from this? I think he just wants attention, or else he would not be doing this and then flaunting it. The best thing to do with attention seekers is to simply refuse to give them the attention they crave, which you've already decided to do. In my eyes, you've chosen to stand for what you believe in, and thats good. Are you immature for standing up for what you believe to be right? I say no.

[Joe Matt]

I'll be the first to admit that it's getting late for me, so I didn't read all the replies, but here's my belief.

The flag is very special to America, from the stories of how it was created, to the song and how it was still waving during the battle, to pictures and to giving it to the familes of those who have died fighting for us. Burning the flag is a statement that is VERY harsh and VERY strong, you don't do it lightly nor do you do it for fun, etc. Flag burning says one thing: down with the USA.

Simple as that.

But, if this turns into another flag burning thread, let me post this one thing to support my other belief that means more than the flag, the Constitution. During some stage shows, magicians Penn & Teller would go on a speach about the rights we have as Americans, and how we have the right to march down a street either to promote equality, or to shun it. Then they would symbolize something very important to me, they would wrap the US Constitution in the US Flag and then burn it. In the end, they went through the ashes, and found the Constitution still intact, because in the end the flag is a piece of cloth, and in the end, the Constitution is a piece of paper with words on it declaring the rights and freedoms of it's people, and that is stronger than ANYTHING else.

[mechanicalbrain]

So I've thought about this some more and something made me curious. I noticed a bunch of people felt dead set against flag burning, I'm not questioning those people, but what made me curious is what drove those people to those feelings. Ultimately as Billfred said the flag is a piece of cloth, so it's what it symbolizes that drives us. That made me wonder "what does it symbolize?" I'm pretty sure it's not the government itself, maybe some of the rights the government provides but not the government. I'm willing to bet, and if people have other answers I would love to hear them, it's the people we love and our way of life that the flag symbolizes. I think when people see someone burn a flag they feel it's an attack against that symbol. Since these symbols are something humans in general hold as extremely valuable it is understandable that we have such strong emotions associated.

If this is the case, it's important to remember that just because a person attacks something that holds strong meaning for us doesn't mean their target are those symbols. In fact while we may not agree with their method we might easily side with their purpose. All to often we see or read something and draw our own conclusions, us on CD are no different. If any of this makes sense then I urge those who posted that they were steadfast against flag burning not waver on that view but maybe try and understand the reasoning behind such actions. It's hard to disassociate an action with the meaning behind it but sometimes essential. The only reason I feel super motivated to post this is because it extends past this one topic and situation. Also I wanted to hear from people who have such strong feelings, what does it mean to you? I personally have trouble drawing meaning from objects and im trying to understand why it inspires people. Any insights?

[KenWittlief]

Simple: with our country and governement established and set up the way is it, our flag may stand for things like freedom and sacrifice

but what it literally represents is what America is: We the people.

The flag represents me, my family, my ancestors, my community, the people I work with.

There are 300 million people in the US, and there is one president, one admistration in authority at any given time. If someone wants to protest against the current president, the administration, or the government in general, thats fine with me

but the Stars and Stripes is not the flag of the government of the US, its the flag of the people of the US.

[Bill Moore]

Originally Posted by KenWittlief

Simple: with our country and governement established and set up the way is it, our flag may stand for things like freedom and sacrifice

but what it literally represents is what America is: We the people.

The flag represents me, my family, my ancestors, my community, the people I work with.

There are 300 million people in the US, and there is one president, one admistration in authority at any given time. If someone wants to protest against the current president, the administration, or the government in general, thats fine with me

but the Stars and Stripes is not the flag of the government of the US, its the flag of the people of the US.

Ken hit the nerve here.

If you burn an image of the president in effigy, you are voicing protest against the policies of the current administration. People may disagree or find it a distasteful display, but the overall reaction is much less emotional.

However, if you burn a flag in protest, it is more akin to denouncing us as a nation. You belittle the sacrifice of those who have served and/or died to make and sustain this country. A sacrifice that we acknowledge and honor three times each year: Memorial Day (last Monday in May), Independence Day (July 4th), and Veterans Day (November 11th). You are making a statement that the world is better off if the United States did not exist.

Now the burning of the U.S. flag is not an illegal action (and certainly not in Canada by a Canadian citizen). But what has this person accomplished other than to try and impress someone else by bragging about it. Has he conveyed the cause of his displeasure to us? One of the great things about our population is we do listen to complaints voiced by others. We the people influence which policies we should be pursuing every time we step into a voting booth and select our representatives. If this young man would like to see our policies change, he needs to be more direct as to exactly what he protests.

[Mike]

Originally Posted by Bemis

I think I agree with the idea that burning the flag represents a wish to destroy what it symbolizes. I believe that by burning a symbol of something, you renounce your belief in what that symbol represents. If they have a real, good reason to do this, then so be it. However, they had better not come to me and tell me that it's their right to free speech to do so, for in my eyes, they just burned away that right. I would also like to wonder why this person, who is, as said, a Canadia citizenn, would burn the flag of a nation he is not resident of. What has he to gain from this? I think he just wants attention, or else he would not be doing this and then flaunting it. The best thing to do with attention seekers is to simply refuse to give them the attention they crave, which you've already decided to do. In my eyes, you've chosen to stand for what you believe in, and thats good. Are you immature for standing up for what you believe to be right? I say no.

To add onto this, I love the irony of seeing Americans protesting against the "evil, repressive, power that is America." Why, if they only knew the reason they can protest is the exact thing they are protesting against.

The world is a crazy place...

[Bemis]

Man........... All that typing and you said what I meant in so few words. I commend you, Mike. And yes, that is ironic.

[Billfred]

Originally Posted by Mike

A Swastika is only six black lines in a certain orientation. By burning the symbol is in itself a symbol that you wish to "burn" the ideas and tangible assets of what that symbol represents.

Do I think flag burning should be legal? Absolutely.

Do I respect those that burn flags in a dishonorable manor? Not a bit.

If my friend were to burn an American flag, that person would no longer be my friend. To disagree with a country and attempt to change it for the better is an honorable thing to do, but simply saying "I do not like this country so I will symbolize it burning." is horrid.

I do not agree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.

-Voltaire

Mike here nailed it. I quoted it for that very reason.

USC seems to be a magnet for certain people of extreme viewpoints. Sometimes religious, sometimes political, sometimes social. Sometimes I agree with them, sometimes I can't stand their views.

The one thing I always notice about such groups is their delivery. I've seen groups stand around with literature or signage and talk in a normal, conversational tone. I've also seen fire-and-brimstone preachers yelling and screaming about the destination of everyone within fifty yards (all in one particular direction, if you catch my drift). The former is generally allowed to stick to whereever they are as long as they're not blocking anything, while the latter tends to get moved to the campus "free speech area" (the patio behind the Russell House student union, if you were curious). As long as it doesn't harm anyone and is at a reasonable time and place, I'm not going to stop you from speaking your peace.

To apply it to flag burning, I'll put it like this: If you burn an American flag around me, you'd better have a VERY good reason why you're doing it. But I'll fight with everything I have to let you have the option.