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Unread 21-02-2006, 15:00
meaubry meaubry is offline
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Re: Off Side Penalty?

Good reply DjAlamose - thanks for keeping this thread on the high road.

Look - there are going to many times when some ninnie dreams up a devious strategy that many will think is totally unprofessional and truely ungracious - when that happens teams will be given the real test of character - copy the ungracious behaviour or ignore it for the "high road".

Some live by a higher standard regardless of what the written rules say - some play the game by the rules, and what isn't written must be okay.

Once each team makes that decision, the greater masses at the event can then decide what they think about it - treat them like pariahs, ignore them, pick them as alliance partners, or whatever.

Sorry - I got off topic -
My answer to this is to "just don't push the opposition if they are "dead, disabled, or tipped over" - that is what I tell our drivers my expectation is of them. Legal or not, if that is the only way to win a match, I'd rather lose.
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Unread 21-02-2006, 15:14
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Re: Off Side Penalty?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DjAlamose
Also i didn't know there was a rule about their not counting due to the fact that the opposing alliance caused the infraction (do you have a rule number, just curious).
The very last sentence of G26 talks about if a robot prevents a backbot from getting to their position, it won't count against the backbot because they are on their way, intending and trying to get there.
Last year there were a lot of rules and updates about the loading zone infractions, and many of them discussed if the opponent caused the infraction, it would not penalize the other person.

Applaud your reply, and glad to know you aren't planning to use it. It was good of you to bring it to attention for discussion.

Last year was chaos with the loading zone infractions and questions of "did they intend to make you cause a 30pt penalty" etc. This year, if you go over to the dead backbot, and pull him to the other side, it's quite obvious of your intent. I would not consider them exactly the same situations, but relatively the same concept.
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Unread 21-02-2006, 15:30
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Re: Off Side Penalty?

To add to Amy's post, the text of <G26> which I believe applies is:
Quote:
ROBOTs of the same ALLIANCE may dynamically change the designation of the BACKBOT during the defensive period as long as there is at least one BACKBOT during the entire period.
I underlined what I feel is a key element in the spirit of this rule - that the defensive alliance can change which robot is backbot, but the offensive alliance cannot.
Quote:
A BACKBOT that is prevented by an offensive ROBOT from crossing the field centerline will not be penalized
If I am the referee, I will consider a disabled BACKBOT which is pushed by their opponent into an offsides position, to be prevented by the offensive robot, and therefore not subject to penalty.
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Unread 19-02-2006, 23:05
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Re: Off Side Penalty?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Athenian Roboti
We are wondering: what happens if you are on defense and are not able to get one of your robots to the other side because it has broken down? Will you get penalized? We already know what to do in the event that it happens, but we want to know what the judges will think.
The referees will think "I am here to enforce the rules of the game." The judges probably won't think anything about it, because they are likely to be back in the pits interviewing teams. If a robot breaks down on the "wrong" side of the field, count on getting a 5 point penalty for every 5 seconds that your alliance partners don't push the dead robot back across the mid-field line, or until one of them scoots back over the line.
Quote:
Please refer to the changes that have been made, the first two replies were answering it, but not in the way we were anticipating.
What were you anticipating?

-dave
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Unread 19-02-2006, 23:22
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Re: Off Side Penalty?

Quote:
Either choose another robot or push the damaged one to be the backbot within five seconds.
I agree with this.
If your robot breaks down and you can't get it back over the line, just choose one of your functional alliance partners to be the backbot. The only problem will be that it's now 3 versus 1 (+ one broken) during offence.
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Unread 20-02-2006, 19:56
Andy Brockway Andy Brockway is offline
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Re: Off Side Penalty?

You should have a backup plan because the penalties add up fast. In our first match at the UTC scrimmage, our opponents neglected to have a backbot. Their penalty was 35 points. It would have been higher except for incidental robot travel.
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Unread 21-02-2006, 08:12
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Re: Off Side Penalty?

it's should be a 40points penalty if you stay with all 3 during the entire 40 seconds,
just need to think wether you will be able to block more then 40 points with 2 bots and a dead one, if not, leave it to 1vs3,

something I just thought about, can an alliance decide it wants to get a 40point penalty and stick the entire 40seconds with 3 bots?
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Unread 21-02-2006, 11:36
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Re: Off Side Penalty?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nimmy
it's should be a 40points penalty if you stay with all 3 during the entire 40 seconds,
just need to think wether you will be able to block more then 40 points with 2 bots and a dead one, if not, leave it to 1vs3,

something I just thought about, can an alliance decide it wants to get a 40point penalty and stick the entire 40seconds with 3 bots?
Well, it would be a 45 point penalty - 5 points for the initial infraction itself, plus 5 points for each 5-second continuation in the offside position. I wouldn't look kindly on such a strategy, but I'm not the GDC or a referee.

Btw, I just noticed your full name. You may be interested in this link: http://www.bookstore.mtu.edu/michtec...F PG74AB598AB The Watersmeet (the name of a very small town in the Upper Peninsula of Michigan) Nimrods were mentioned on ESPN as having an "interesting" mascot name. They got so many requests for apparel they had to outsource it to the Michigan Tech bookstore to fulfill orders.
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Unread 22-02-2006, 10:14
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Re: Off Side Penalty?

Quote:
Originally Posted by GaryV1188
Well, it would be a 45 point penalty - 5 points for the initial infraction itself, plus 5 points for each 5-second continuation in the offside position. I wouldn't look kindly on such a strategy, but I'm not the GDC or a referee.

Btw, I just noticed your full name. You may be interested in this link: http://www.bookstore.mtu.edu/michtec...F PG74AB598AB The Watersmeet (the name of a very small town in the Upper Peninsula of Michigan) Nimrods were mentioned on ESPN as having an "interesting" mascot name. They got so many requests for apparel they had to outsource it to the Michigan Tech bookstore to fulfill orders.
actually, the first -5 you get AFTER 5 seconds have gone by,
so lets do the math
at 35 seconds=-5
at 30 seconds=-10
at 25 seconds=-15
at 20 seconds=-20
at 15 seconds=-25
at 10 seconds=-30
at 05 seconds=-35
now assuming that no one is gonna wait the entire 40 seconds, and will probably head back at around 38, you might actually get a -35 instead of a -40, in any case -45 is NOT possible by this kind of penalty ALONE,

I didn't get the whole Nimrod thing,
in any case don't make fun of my name...Nimrod is the guy who ENGINEERED the BABYLON TOWERS! so HA! (how FIRST of me hehe)...

about the defensive strategy DJ proposed, I think it's great, really "out of the box" thinking, and I wouldn't have any problem doing it UNLESS it so happens to be that while pushing the other bot (for example if he tipped over), that bot's sensitive parts might be harmed, that could be VERY expensive to repair...

now here's a question, if that bot tipped, and when pushed, it's components tear-apart the carpet and or poof balls, who's fault is it? the pushed bot, or the bot which is doing the pusher?

if it's the pushed bot's fault, will it still get a penalty after pushing the ES buttom?
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Unread 22-02-2006, 10:50
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Re: Off Side Penalty?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nimmy
actually, the first -5 you get AFTER 5 seconds have gone by,
so lets do the math
at 35 seconds=-5
at 30 seconds=-10
at 25 seconds=-15
at 20 seconds=-20
at 15 seconds=-25
at 10 seconds=-30
at 05 seconds=-35
now assuming that no one is gonna wait the entire 40 seconds, and will probably head back at around 38, you might actually get a -35 instead of a -40, in any case -45 is NOT possible by this kind of penalty ALONE,
There is a 5-second grace period "to allow an ALLIANCE to get their BACKBOT “ON SIDES”, however, the BACKBOT must be moving toward the mid-field line at the start of the period." (Rule <G35>) If the robot is already dead, it won't be moving back toward mid-field, so does the grace period apply? If it does, then 40 is the max. If not, it will get the initial 5 point penalty immediately. <G35> also says that the additional penalties per 5-second increment begin accruing after the grace period ends, so again, the question becomes, will the dead bot get a grace period?

We might note that a live robot could get significantly more than 40 points in penalties, if it continuously wavers offside and onside. If this was done about once per second for the entire 40 seconds - WOW, a 200 point penalty!

Quote:
I didn't get the whole Nimrod thing,
in any case don't make fun of my name...Nimrod is the guy who ENGINEERED the BABYLON TOWERS! so HA! (how FIRST of me hehe)...
I had no intent of making fun of your name. I knew Nimrod is a name that appears in Genesis. The school mascot is based on Viking lore. I posted the link in case you wanted to order a shirt with your name on it ...

The reason ESPN thought the name "interesting" is that nimrod is a somewhat derogatory term meaning a silly or foolish person. dictionary.com thinks that meaning derives from a Bugs Bunny cartoon, where Bugs describes Elmer Fudd as a "poor little Nimrod". Elmer of course was always hunting Bugs, and Nimrod was a hunter - but Elmer was a very ineffectual hunter, so Bugs clearly didn't mean it as praise.
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Unread 22-02-2006, 11:57
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Re: Off Side Penalty?

Quote:
Originally Posted by GaryV1188
There is a 5-second grace period "to allow an ALLIANCE to get their BACKBOT “ON SIDES”, however, the BACKBOT must be moving toward the mid-field line at the start of the period." (Rule <G35>) If the robot is already dead, it won't be moving back toward mid-field, so does the grace period apply? If it does, then 40 is the max. If not, it will get the initial 5 point penalty immediately. <G35> also says that the additional penalties per 5-second increment begin accruing after the grace period ends, so again, the question becomes, will the dead bot get a grace period?

We might note that a live robot could get significantly more than 40 points in penalties, if it continuously wavers offside and onside. If this was done about once per second for the entire 40 seconds - WOW, a 200 point penalty!

I had no intent of making fun of your name. I knew Nimrod is a name that appears in Genesis. The school mascot is based on Viking lore. I posted the link in case you wanted to order a shirt with your name on it ...

The reason ESPN thought the name "interesting" is that nimrod is a somewhat derogatory term meaning a silly or foolish person. dictionary.com thinks that meaning derives from a Bugs Bunny cartoon, where Bugs describes Elmer Fudd as a "poor little Nimrod". Elmer of course was always hunting Bugs, and Nimrod was a hunter - but Elmer was a very ineffectual hunter, so Bugs clearly didn't mean it as praise.
I know all about my name, trust me (I even added a link in the sig), =) I love it
and yeha I even know that episode buggs rocks =)

in anycase about the rules
isn't the backbot allowed to get across the line for 5 seconds?
if not...man DJ's strategy could get pretty mean, I mean who cares about scoring, just have one bot pushing him unto one side, and another pushing it to the other side, you get so many points in penalty for the other team you don't NEED to score
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Unread 22-02-2006, 13:01
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Re: Off Side Penalty?

If it is a robot that can move then no penalties will be assessed per <g26> but if it is a deadbot then penalties (from my interpretation will be assessed). But that still doesn't mean that you don't need to score points. It is not only bad to do this but not wise. Your standings at the competition are based on how many points your OPONENT gets at the end of the match not by your score (only if you win of course). So it would not be wise to make your opponent get zero pts. BUT because the number of QP (qualifying points) gained is the lowest number before penalties this could be good. here is how QP is given:

No penalties: Opponents score
You had penalties: Opponents score
Opponent had penalties (and without penalties would have won the match): your score
Opponent had penalties (would have lost even without): their score before penalties.
Both have penalties: either opponents score before penalties or your score with penalties, whichever is highest.
(should be right unless it has changed)

Now that I have confused you, If could be advantageous to use this strategy (i wouldn't no matter what) for QP seeing that their score to begin with is higher and your score is lower (before penalties). This is the only time that I can see it beneficial. Plus this year with real time scoring it will be easier to decide if we should score for the opponent to get more QP. (yes I would do this because if you can then you must have a good robot, plus you help them out with QP)

Again, I brought out this strategy to let people know about it so if it does happen they can have an idea as to what actions should be taken. Also, Hey Amy, has the GDC answered the question yet?
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Unread 22-02-2006, 13:48
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Re: Off Side Penalty?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DjAlamose
has the GDC answered the question yet?
No they have not.
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Unread 22-02-2006, 13:50
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Re: Off Side Penalty?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DjAlamose
Also, Hey Amy, has the GDC answered the question yet?
Nope, it hasn't been posted to Q/A yet by the GDC. Doesn't look there has been any activity today on Q/A.
You can check yourself also at yttp://www.usfirst.org/robotics/2006/qa.htm . The subject title was "Dead backbot".

Also, Ethulin, good points! However, your example of
Quote:
"You are 100% correct to say that they put the bot in a situation that allows the bot to incur a penalty, but think of it this way; if you pushed a live bot over the line and backed off and that bot's drivers decided to take their hands off the controls and let it sit there thould it incure the penalty? The other team DID put the bot in the illegal position. The only difference is that the team has the ability to get out of it. The rules do not reference this ability, therefore a penalty should be assessed in both situations.
Unless they foolishly take their hands off the controls and sit there, like your example, they won't get a penalty. Chances are, the pushed bot will be trying to get back over to his backbot position, and therefore, if the opponent tries to prevent him from doing so, G26 kicks in again, and no penalty assessed. I suppose your situation could happen, but honestly it doesn't seem realistic to me... why would a backbot just sit there and take the penalties after they got shoved around by the opponent? There might be a reason, but.... I'll take the odds that they will try to get back.

The GDC might just make a difference between dead and live bots. We shall see soon hopefully.
I like health of this debate.
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Unread 25-02-2006, 16:13
Athenian Roboti Athenian Roboti is offline
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Re: Off Side Penalty?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dlavery
The referees will think "I am here to enforce the rules of the game." The judges probably won't think anything about it, because they are likely to be back in the pits interviewing teams. If a robot breaks down on the "wrong" side of the field, count on getting a 5 point penalty for every 5 seconds that your alliance partners don't push the dead robot back across the mid-field line, or until one of them scoots back over the line.

What were you anticipating?

-dave

We were interested in the penalty more than the strategy, but the suggestions are helpful.

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