Food for thought

[cjbonez]

Just out of curiosity i was wondering how many teams actually build their own robots. Because ive asked around at a lot of competitions and it seems that most teams ship out their robot to be built for them, or even jsut designed for them. I found this ironic considering the spirit of first is about learning and doing things yourself so why do so many teams ship out their entire robot or the majority of their robot to be built for them? because my team's entire robot is hand made and i think that says something about our team. Just some food for thought.

[Keo-san]

We have been in FIRST for 4 years and we always design, build, program, and use our robot. The kids that is. The robot was always hand made. This year for the first time we got a connection with someone who could CNC parts for us. Since we don't have the necessary knowledge or funds we used this connection to CNC our transmitions. That is the only outsourced thing in our robot. If you see it its all handmade and hand cut exept for teh transmission. Actualy we first made the transmissions by hand and they were very imperfect. We got them CNC'd and now they function perfectly. Some parts you do need to outsource but most fo the work should be done at least by the students.

[lallamavolador]

Our team builds our own robot completely by ourselves, but yeah it is rather common to see that some teams robots are built completey by some engineering companies and then given to them to learn how to drive, but oo well. The building process is really fun for our team, lot sof laughs and inside jokes.

[KenWittlief]

I have been a mentor for over 6 years now, and I have never met a team yet that sent their robot out to someone else to be designed, fabricated or assembled.

Some things that might be leading to confusion:

1. The engineer mentors ARE part of the team, equals with the students in every aspect, except the adults cannot drive during the competitions.

2. In real life engineers dont fabricate parts, they create drawings that are given to machinst, or sent to machine shops that specialize in part fabrication. Usually those parts come back and are assembled by a technician, then the engineers test and debug the design. Dont confuse sending individual parts out to be fabricated with having someone else build your whole robot for you.

3. Any outside fabrication of work of any kind done on the robot must be accounted for (normal shop rates $$$) in the total cost of the robot. It would be impossible to get someone to build your robot for you and stay within the total allowed budget.

Over the years I have only heard of one team that went to the extreem: It was a rookie team, and the only mentor was a shop teacher who locked himself in his shop for 5 weeks and built the entire robot himself, then gave it to the students to practice driving. Things like this happen sometimes, but its becoming pretty unusual. By the end of the first year, when teams have been to competitions the mentors 'get it' and a good balance is established between student build and mentor built.

(BTW, That team with the mentor locked by himself in the shop for 5 weeks folded at the end of the year. The sponsors were VERY upset and pulled the plug).

[techtiger1]

Ken first of all great thread topic. I think overall most teams build most of the robot by themselves. Some of the posts on here refer to sending some parts out but not having the whole thing machined by someone else. This is sometimes and many times the case with some teams. One thread in particular about a transmission fabrication really stood out. My team did custom gearboxes for the first year this year and as a person who is involved in learning about manufacturing I will like to say a few things. People have no idea sometimes when building a transmission how tight tolerances have to be in order for it work and how to machine things to those type of tolerances, this takes a person with skill and prior knowledge to pull such a feat off. Sometimes many people as in the case of a transmission for a robot. Also what someone posted earlier about how in the real word there are engineers, technicians and fabricators is absolutely correct. My team works with Sonny's a car wash factory and when I go there I get to to see all these things under one roof and it's amazing to see .

I like the thread,
- Drew

[Inverted]

This is our 4th year as a team, and we've always designed and built it ourselves. We've had various parts sent out to be machined for us, but that's only because we lack the equipment to do them ourselves. 2 years ago we sent out our frame schematics so it coul dbe built and welded, and the company did a horrible job on it; one of the side walls was crooked! Not that that's the whole reason we built it ourselves, but where's the fun in having some big company design and build it for you? Beyond that, what's the point in even joining FIRST if you're not going to learn anything because you didn't do any of the work yourself? Seems pointless to me.

[KathieK]

Originally Posted by cjbonez

Just out of curiosity i was wondering how many teams actually build their own robots. Because ive asked around at a lot of competitions and it seems that most teams ship out their robot to be built for them, or even jsut designed for them. I found this ironic considering the spirit of first is about learning and doing things yourself so why do so many teams ship out their entire robot or the majority of their robot to be built for them? because my team's entire robot is hand made and i think that says something about our team. Just some food for thought.

First of all, welcome to ChiefDelphi!
The debate about student-built vs. mentor-built robots occurs each season on ChiefDelphi and usually has the same results - there is no "right way" to model a FIRST team. Every team is unique. FIRST's goals are not to "teach" but to "inspire" - if you are inspired to appreciate science and technology by building the robot yourself, wonderful! If you are inspired to appreciate science and technology by observing professionals at work, wonderful! There are lots of threads on CD on this topic - instead of adding more to this one, do a search and find one already posted. And after reading through it if you feel you have more to offer, please add to that one.
I'm an alum from Baldwin Senior High School so I wish your team success this coming season!

[KenWittlief]

one last thought: if the idea of sending parts out to be fabricated bothers you, go back and look at all the stuff that came in the kit of parts. The control system, the motors, the pneumatics, the compressor, the wires, the battery....

Imagine if you REALLY had to build everything from scratch! It would be impossible.

[cjbonez]

ohk i know you said look for other threads but i have one last point. look at the new pic from team 1501 now not to take a shot at their team but honestly they must have a pretty high tech shop to build that by themselves. just to prove my point because most responses said that they build their own robot so i was just curious about 1501. Although as other replies have said there is no "right" way so watever works for your team i was just throwing the idea out there

[KTorak]

4th year team here, 2nd year on it for me, and we've always had a student designed/built robot. We've had mentors machine complex parts for us and some other random stuff, but we do end up doing most of the machining and other stuff.

[Ethulin]

Originally Posted by KathieK

First of all, welcome to ChiefDelphi!
The debate about student-built vs. mentor-built robots occurs each season on ChiefDelphi and usually has the same results - there is no "right way" to model a FIRST team. Every team is unique. FIRST's goals are not to "teach" but to "inspire" - if you are inspired to appreciate science and technology by building the robot yourself, wonderful! If you are inspired to appreciate science and technology by observing professionals at work, wonderful! There are lots of threads on CD on this topic - instead of adding more to this one, do a search and find one already posted. And after reading through it if you feel you have more to offer, please add to that one.
I'm an alum from Baldwin Senior High School so I wish your team success this coming season!

Though I have not been on Delphi any where close to as long as many of my piers (only 3 years) I have been on long enough to hear this discussion half a million times. If you really do want to talk about it more I suggest you use the moderated discussion forum.

KathieK has got it right, this subject really has been beaten to death over the past few years, with very new insight added to it. If you really do have something other than "we built our robot all by ourselves" "we learn from our mentors building it" or "we have the exact right mix" then feel free to do so in a moderated setting. Otherwise I strongly suggest you let this dead horse lie.

[Chris_Elston]

Originally Posted by cjbonez

ohk i know you said look for other threads but i have one last point. look at the new pic from team 1501 now not to take a shot at their team but honestly they must have a pretty high tech shop to build that by themselves. just to prove my point because most responses said that they build their own robot so i was just curious about 1501. Although as other replies have said there is no "right" way so watever works for your team i was just throwing the idea out there

Actually....

All you need you need is:

1. A 1:1 plot of the part you are making, like a sidewall
2. Cut out your 1:1 plot.
3: Glue it on a piece of wood.
4. Cut out your peice of wood, this is called a FORMER block
5. Take your piece of wood to your alumium sheet.
6. Use a 1/2" circle with a hole in it to trace around your wood to make a 1/2 halo around the FORMER block.
7. Cut out your alumium piece with TIN SNIPS.
8. Use your former block to pound the edges together.
9. Klecko the thing together, when your happy, RIVET it.


Seriously....that is IT...no CNC mill or LASER cutting required. It's VERY SIMPLE to make a robot like this...

I am electrical, and I saw the kids make it they catch on fast.

[Joe J.]

Lightning Robotics has been both a Mentor Driven team and a Student Driven team.
Back in 2000 and 2001 (as 465) a lot of the robot work was done by mentors.

In 2002 with a new sponsor we switched to a Student Driven team and have been that way ever since.
Last year we were worried about losing our machining capabilities, both access to the shop and mentors who had access to it, so we created our Hacksaw & Drill philosophy. We used this last year, designing the robot so that it could be using only simple hand tools. It worked extremely well.
We used it again this year with one difference, we did lose easy access to our sponsors machine shop.

The Hacksaw & Drill philosophy also allows more student involvement, a hacksaw requires much less training time than a band saw, and is safer to use. As a result our robots are almost 100% student built.

Now this is how our team operates, I know other teams operate differently and thats fine.

As for Student vs. Mentor built a lot of that can depend on the resources available to each team. It's common knowledge that some teams have better funding, or lots of mentors, or facilities better suited to build and test a robot. If they have them they should use them. Each team has its own way of carrying out the vision of FIRST.

[The Lucas]

We used to build the frame to our robot then send it off to get welded. DuPont's safety standards don't allow welding in our workshop.

In 2004, we started using Bosch Tubing to build our frame. We still got it welded, but you can't weld that stuff well. The welding was really unnecessary anyway, and we haven't welded any frames since. Bosch Tubing is sturdy stuff and we don't have to wait for the welders anymore.

[Wayne Doenges]

ohk i know you said look for other threads but i have one last point. look at the new pic from team 1501 now not to take a shot at their team but honestly they must have a pretty high tech shop to build that by themselves. just to prove my point because most responses said that they build their own robot so i was just curious about 1501. Although as other replies have said there is no "right" way so watever works for your team i was just throwing the idea out there

Thanks for the off handed complement (high tech shop).
Our robot this year was 95% built by us. The other 5% were the trannies. They were manufactured and donated by one of our sponsors but assembled by the students.
Last year we built our awesome robot (shameless plug ) in a church basement wood shop. That's right, a wood shop. Our high tech tools were a band saw, a table saw and a drill press. Along with the Clecos and Cleco pliers.
This year we built it in a warehouse from space donated by another of our sponsors. They let us use their Bridgeport and lathe.
We used the Bridgeport to mill our sprockets and to drill the 6 hole wheelchair wheel pattern. The lathe was used to create joining parts for the wheelchair wheels for our shooter. we could not use students for these processes as they were building the bot, the electrical board and doing the programming.
As Chakorules stated all we do is form aluminum over a high tech wood form block.