Off Side Penalty?

[Athenian Roboti]

We are wondering: what happens if you are on defense and are not able to get one of your robots to the other side because it has broken down? Will you get penalized? We already know what to do in the event that it happens, but we want to know what the judges will think. The rule I'm referring to is in Section 4.3.4.5 (Match Play), Paragraph G26. Please advise. Thanks!

The Athenian Robotics Collective

[pyroslev]

Either choose another robot or push the damaged one to be the backbot within five seconds.

[Joe J.]

pyroslev is right

FIRST Q&A on the subject.

[Athenian Roboti]

Please refer to the changes that have been made, the first two replies were answering it, but not in the way we were anticipating.

The Athenian Robotics Collective

[dlavery]

Originally Posted by Athenian Roboti

We are wondering: what happens if you are on defense and are not able to get one of your robots to the other side because it has broken down? Will you get penalized? We already know what to do in the event that it happens, but we want to know what the judges will think.

The referees will think "I am here to enforce the rules of the game." The judges probably won't think anything about it, because they are likely to be back in the pits interviewing teams. If a robot breaks down on the "wrong" side of the field, count on getting a 5 point penalty for every 5 seconds that your alliance partners don't push the dead robot back across the mid-field line, or until one of them scoots back over the line.

Please refer to the changes that have been made, the first two replies were answering it, but not in the way we were anticipating.

What were you anticipating?

-dave

[Wayne Doenges]

Either choose another robot or push the damaged one to be the backbot within five seconds.

I agree with this.
If your robot breaks down and you can't get it back over the line, just choose one of your functional alliance partners to be the backbot. The only problem will be that it's now 3 versus 1 (+ one broken) during offence.

[Andy Brockway]

You should have a backup plan because the penalties add up fast. In our first match at the UTC scrimmage, our opponents neglected to have a backbot. Their penalty was 35 points. It would have been higher except for incidental robot travel.

[Nimmy]

it's should be a 40points penalty if you stay with all 3 during the entire 40 seconds,
just need to think wether you will be able to block more then 40 points with 2 bots and a dead one, if not, leave it to 1vs3,

something I just thought about, can an alliance decide it wants to get a 40point penalty and stick the entire 40seconds with 3 bots?

[GaryVoshol]

Originally Posted by Nimmy

it's should be a 40points penalty if you stay with all 3 during the entire 40 seconds,
just need to think wether you will be able to block more then 40 points with 2 bots and a dead one, if not, leave it to 1vs3,

something I just thought about, can an alliance decide it wants to get a 40point penalty and stick the entire 40seconds with 3 bots?

Well, it would be a 45 point penalty - 5 points for the initial infraction itself, plus 5 points for each 5-second continuation in the offside position. I wouldn't look kindly on such a strategy, but I'm not the GDC or a referee.

Btw, I just noticed your full name. You may be interested in this link: http://www.bookstore.mtu.edu/michtec...F PG74AB598AB The Watersmeet (the name of a very small town in the Upper Peninsula of Michigan) Nimrods were mentioned on ESPN as having an "interesting" mascot name. They got so many requests for apparel they had to outsource it to the Michigan Tech bookstore to fulfill orders.

[Elgin Clock]

Originally Posted by Philmont629

pyroslev is right

FIRST Q&A on the subject.

We saw this happen at the UTC scrimmage.

Best thing to do is put the robot with the most potential for breaking down at the beginning of the match in the backbot position already.

To do this, gain psychic powers.

If you are competing with a known dead bot, just make them start at the backbot position.

It was pretty funny how Benge solved the problem at the UTC scrimmage.
I could upload a vid of that sometime this week.
Horray for a being a scrimmage where it's mostly by the rules but semi-forgiving as well.

[DjAlamose]

This is what you can do in this situation if you are on the opposing alliance and you have a defensive robot on your alliance. Because it is now 2v3 with the backbot dead, the defensive robot can go and begin pushing dead backbot into position so it is no longer a backbot, and presto you now have given your opponent a penalty for every 5 seconds that backbot is over the line. and therefore created a 1v3. But if you were to do this I would only push the dead bot so far as to barely put it over the line so the opposing alliance won't see that it is past the line.

mmm for strategy

[dlavery]

Originally Posted by DjAlamose

This is what you can do in this situation if you are on the opposing alliance and you have a defensive robot on your alliance. Because it is now 2v3 with the backbot dead, the defensive robot can go and begin pushing dead backbot into position so it is no longer a backbot, and presto you now have given your opponent a penalty for every 5 seconds that backbot is over the line. and therefore created a 1v3. But if you were to do this I would only push the dead bot so far as to barely put it over the line so the opposing alliance won't see that it is past the line.

mmm for strategy

And that is exactly the sort of cheap, unsportmanlike tactics that we are supposed to rise above. I would expect to see such a play in a pro wrestling match, but not in a FIRST competition. When you do this, don't be surprised when everyone on your team is treated like pariahs for the remainder of the competition.

-dave

[AmyPrib]

Originally Posted by DjAlamose

This is what you can do in this situation if you are on the opposing alliance and you have a defensive robot on your alliance. Because it is now 2v3 with the backbot dead, the defensive robot can go and begin pushing dead backbot into position so it is no longer a backbot, and presto you now have given your opponent a penalty for every 5 seconds that backbot is over the line. and therefore created a 1v3. But if you were to do this I would only push the dead bot so far as to barely put it over the line so the opposing alliance won't see that it is past the line.

mmm for strategy

Wow. That thought would have never crossed my mind in a million years.

If the oppoent pulls a dead backbot over to the other side, I would expect that not to count against the dead robot. I think there is a rule about how if the opponent is preventing a team to get to backbot position, it will NOT count against the backbot team. I would hope the same logic comes into play with your nasty strategy.
Heck, I would hope that opponent gets a penalty for acting ungracious and unsportsmanlike. If you need to use that kind of strategy, you should probably take a look at the rest of your strategy and capabilities to find out where you can improve.

[Jon K.]

Originally Posted by DjAlamose

This is what you can do in this situation if you are on the opposing alliance and you have a defensive robot on your alliance. Because it is now 2v3 with the backbot dead, the defensive robot can go and begin pushing dead backbot into position so it is no longer a backbot, and presto you now have given your opponent a penalty for every 5 seconds that backbot is over the line. and therefore created a 1v3. But if you were to do this I would only push the dead bot so far as to barely put it over the line so the opposing alliance won't see that it is past the line.

mmm for strategy

While I may never have thought of using this strategy, it is none-the-less a legitimate strategy. I thinke everyone bashing Dj should stop, I mean think of last year, and how many people would try to get intentional 30 point penalties called against the other alliance. It happened more then most would like to admit I am affraid. Although I do agree with Amy's post about it not counting against the alliance due to the rule where the opposite alliance caused the infraction.

[DjAlamose]

Originally Posted by Jon K.

While I may never have thought of using this strategy, it is none-the-less a legitimate strategy. I thinke everyone bashing Dj should stop, I mean think of last year, and how many people would try to get intentional 30 point penalties called against the other alliance. It happened more then most would like to admit I am affraid. Although I do agree with Amy's post about it not counting against the alliance due to the rule where the opposite alliance caused the infraction.

I actually agree with both of you. The thought of this just happened to cross my mind and i decided to point it out. Our robot isn't made for pushing but out maneuvering. Also i didn't know there was a rule about their not counting due to the fact that the opposing alliance caused the infraction (do you have a rule number, just curious). But yes last year people tried to force loading zone penalties way too much, and i could see the same thing happening this year (except it would be with the backbot not loading zones of course). My guess is in the first few matches the backbots will forget about the rule and accidentally go over the line, but as the competition rolls on it will be remembered quite well, just like HP's being in the box last year.
I do agree that this strategy wouldn't be within the ideas of GP so in the end I wouldn't use it at all. But the more prepared you are for any situation and circumstance the better off you are.