Go to Post One must agree that a Bus full of FIRSTers is always Fun'n Frolic. :) - RoboMadi [more]
Home
Go Back   Chief Delphi > Competition > Rules/Strategy
CD-Media   CD-Spy  
portal register members calendar search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read FAQ rules

 
Closed Thread
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #16   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 21-02-2006, 15:00
meaubry meaubry is offline
volunteer helper
FRC #6099 (Knights)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Rookie Year: 1997
Location: Shelby Twp, Mi
Posts: 784
meaubry has a reputation beyond reputemeaubry has a reputation beyond reputemeaubry has a reputation beyond reputemeaubry has a reputation beyond reputemeaubry has a reputation beyond reputemeaubry has a reputation beyond reputemeaubry has a reputation beyond reputemeaubry has a reputation beyond reputemeaubry has a reputation beyond reputemeaubry has a reputation beyond reputemeaubry has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Off Side Penalty?

Good reply DjAlamose - thanks for keeping this thread on the high road.

Look - there are going to many times when some ninnie dreams up a devious strategy that many will think is totally unprofessional and truely ungracious - when that happens teams will be given the real test of character - copy the ungracious behaviour or ignore it for the "high road".

Some live by a higher standard regardless of what the written rules say - some play the game by the rules, and what isn't written must be okay.

Once each team makes that decision, the greater masses at the event can then decide what they think about it - treat them like pariahs, ignore them, pick them as alliance partners, or whatever.

Sorry - I got off topic -
My answer to this is to "just don't push the opposition if they are "dead, disabled, or tipped over" - that is what I tell our drivers my expectation is of them. Legal or not, if that is the only way to win a match, I'd rather lose.
  #17   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 21-02-2006, 15:14
AmyPrib's Avatar
AmyPrib AmyPrib is offline
Registered User
no team
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Rookie Year: 2003
Location: Indianapolis, IN
Posts: 688
AmyPrib has a reputation beyond reputeAmyPrib has a reputation beyond reputeAmyPrib has a reputation beyond reputeAmyPrib has a reputation beyond reputeAmyPrib has a reputation beyond reputeAmyPrib has a reputation beyond reputeAmyPrib has a reputation beyond reputeAmyPrib has a reputation beyond reputeAmyPrib has a reputation beyond reputeAmyPrib has a reputation beyond reputeAmyPrib has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Off Side Penalty?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DjAlamose
Also i didn't know there was a rule about their not counting due to the fact that the opposing alliance caused the infraction (do you have a rule number, just curious).
The very last sentence of G26 talks about if a robot prevents a backbot from getting to their position, it won't count against the backbot because they are on their way, intending and trying to get there.
Last year there were a lot of rules and updates about the loading zone infractions, and many of them discussed if the opponent caused the infraction, it would not penalize the other person.

Applaud your reply, and glad to know you aren't planning to use it. It was good of you to bring it to attention for discussion.

Last year was chaos with the loading zone infractions and questions of "did they intend to make you cause a 30pt penalty" etc. This year, if you go over to the dead backbot, and pull him to the other side, it's quite obvious of your intent. I would not consider them exactly the same situations, but relatively the same concept.
__________________

Co-Chair Boilermaker Regional Planning Committee 2004-2011
2008 St. Louis Regional Finalists and Engineering Inspiration Award
2007 St. Louis Regional Champions - Thanks 1444 & 829! / St. Louis and Boilermaker Quality Award
2006 Boilermaker Chairman's Award
Referee - IRI - 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008
2005 Midwest Regional - Semifinalist, Engineering Inspiration Award, and Safety Award / Boilermaker Regional - Judges Award
2004 Midwest Regional Champions - Thanks 269 and 930! / IRI Runner-Up - Thanks to 234 and 447!!!
2004 Championship: Archimedes Finalist - Thanks 716 and 1272!
"We are going to be praised and criticized more than we deserve. We are not to be affected by either." ~ co-worker
  #18   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 21-02-2006, 15:30
petek's Avatar
petek petek is offline
What would Dave do?
AKA: Peter Kieselbach
FRC #3654 (Tech Tigers)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: May 2002
Rookie Year: 2002
Location: Middletown, CT
Posts: 923
petek has a reputation beyond reputepetek has a reputation beyond reputepetek has a reputation beyond reputepetek has a reputation beyond reputepetek has a reputation beyond reputepetek has a reputation beyond reputepetek has a reputation beyond reputepetek has a reputation beyond reputepetek has a reputation beyond reputepetek has a reputation beyond reputepetek has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to petek
Re: Off Side Penalty?

To add to Amy's post, the text of <G26> which I believe applies is:
Quote:
ROBOTs of the same ALLIANCE may dynamically change the designation of the BACKBOT during the defensive period as long as there is at least one BACKBOT during the entire period.
I underlined what I feel is a key element in the spirit of this rule - that the defensive alliance can change which robot is backbot, but the offensive alliance cannot.
Quote:
A BACKBOT that is prevented by an offensive ROBOT from crossing the field centerline will not be penalized
If I am the referee, I will consider a disabled BACKBOT which is pushed by their opponent into an offsides position, to be prevented by the offensive robot, and therefore not subject to penalty.
__________________
Pete Kieselbach
#4

  #19   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 21-02-2006, 16:25
Ethulin Ethulin is offline
Too many hats to count
AKA: Erik Thulin
FRC #0492 (Titan Robotics)
Team Role: Leadership
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Rookie Year: 2003
Location: Seattle
Posts: 245
Ethulin has much to be proud ofEthulin has much to be proud ofEthulin has much to be proud ofEthulin has much to be proud ofEthulin has much to be proud ofEthulin has much to be proud ofEthulin has much to be proud ofEthulin has much to be proud of
Send a message via AIM to Ethulin
Re: Off Side Penalty?

Quote:
Originally Posted by AmyPrib
Wow. That thought would have never crossed my mind in a million years.

If the oppoent pulls a dead backbot over to the other side, I would expect that not to count against the dead robot. I think there is a rule about how if the opponent is preventing a team to get to backbot position, it will NOT count against the backbot team. I would hope the same logic comes into play with your nasty strategy.
Heck, I would hope that opponent gets a penalty for acting ungracious and unsportsmanlike. If you need to use that kind of strategy, you should probably take a look at the rest of your strategy and capabilities to find out where you can improve.
The rules are pretty clear on this. If they push the bot over the line and back away they the former backbot is no longer "prevented by an offensive ROBOT from crossing the field centerline". Therefore they will have the 5 point penalty assessed against it. The only thing preventing that team from getting back over is their own bot's inability to move, no one else. I am kinda sick of people saying anything that is defensive is not GP. The GP thing to do is to volunteer to help the team who's bot broke down fix it after the match, not to disregard a perfectly legitimate strategy.

This is where I draw the line: if a team is running a strategy that harms or is likely to harm another team's bot it is not GP. If a team is using the rules to their advantage then go ahead, I congratulate you on your ingenuity.
__________________
2003 Pacific Northwest Regional Website Award || 2003 Pacific Northwest Regional Finalist || 2003 Pacific Northwest Regional Engineering Inspiration Award || 2004 Pacific Northwest Website Award || 2004 Pacific Northwest Regional Champions (#1 seed) || 2004 Galileo Semi-Finalist || 2005 Pacific Northwest Regional General Motors Industiral Design Award || 2005 Pacific Northwest Regional Champions (#1 seed) || 2005 Galileo Finalist || 2006 Pacific Northwest Regional Chairman's
Stamp Scouting || Titan Robotics

Last edited by Ethulin : 21-02-2006 at 16:29.
  #20   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 21-02-2006, 23:15
AmyPrib's Avatar
AmyPrib AmyPrib is offline
Registered User
no team
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Rookie Year: 2003
Location: Indianapolis, IN
Posts: 688
AmyPrib has a reputation beyond reputeAmyPrib has a reputation beyond reputeAmyPrib has a reputation beyond reputeAmyPrib has a reputation beyond reputeAmyPrib has a reputation beyond reputeAmyPrib has a reputation beyond reputeAmyPrib has a reputation beyond reputeAmyPrib has a reputation beyond reputeAmyPrib has a reputation beyond reputeAmyPrib has a reputation beyond reputeAmyPrib has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Off Side Penalty?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ethulin
The rules are pretty clear on this. If they push the bot over the line and back away they the former backbot is no longer "prevented by an offensive ROBOT from crossing the field centerline". Therefore they will have the 5 point penalty assessed against it. The only thing preventing that team from getting back over is their own bot's inability to move, no one else. I am kinda sick of people saying anything that is defensive is not GP. The GP thing to do is to volunteer to help the team who's bot broke down fix it after the match, not to disregard a perfectly legitimate strategy.

This is where I draw the line: if a team is running a strategy that harms or is likely to harm another team's bot it is not GP. If a team is using the rules to their advantage then go ahead, I congratulate you on your ingenuity.
Well, some don't agree that this is a perfectly legal strategy of plan as outlined by the rules. Perhaps it's time for Q/A to specifically address this actual case.

This is not really a defensive play, persay. As always stated, nobody says Defense is un-GP. The perceived intent behind this strategy is to make your opponents score go to 0, while you sit back and watch, maybe? The rules basically tell you that playing defense on a would-be backbot does you absolutely no good. If one wants to think of this as a legit plan, ok. But I guess I don't understand the advantage of wasting all your time pushing a dead robot, rather than scoring offensively with your partners. To each his own.

If a robot is dead, it's likely that the dead bot could be damanged by the pushing, shoving, beating by the opponent to get it moved on the other side of the line. That is not acceptable and likely will be penalized for damage. I would hope they'd give up if it doesn't budge.

The question is cause of infraction. In G26, if the opponent is preventing you from becoming a backbot, the backbot doesnt' get penalized because they are not causing their own inability to get behind the line. Now if a dead bot is sitting there, they are fine. If the opponent pushes them back to the other side, the opponent caused the infraction, not the deadbot themselves. The alliance did not cause themselves to violate the rule, so if you interpret the rule that way, then no penalty.

Would seem the same logic that applies in the moving case would apply in the dead case. Therefore, the deadbot did not cause his situation, therefore by implication would not be penalized.

Why would they penalize a dead robot who was perfectly fine as a dead backbot minding his own business when they don't penalize a robot that is actually moving to become a backbot but is prevented by the opponent? This logic implies that it does not good for the opponent to try and screw up your ability to get in backbot position.

I will ask Q/A and get it answered. Good debate though.
__________________

Co-Chair Boilermaker Regional Planning Committee 2004-2011
2008 St. Louis Regional Finalists and Engineering Inspiration Award
2007 St. Louis Regional Champions - Thanks 1444 & 829! / St. Louis and Boilermaker Quality Award
2006 Boilermaker Chairman's Award
Referee - IRI - 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008
2005 Midwest Regional - Semifinalist, Engineering Inspiration Award, and Safety Award / Boilermaker Regional - Judges Award
2004 Midwest Regional Champions - Thanks 269 and 930! / IRI Runner-Up - Thanks to 234 and 447!!!
2004 Championship: Archimedes Finalist - Thanks 716 and 1272!
"We are going to be praised and criticized more than we deserve. We are not to be affected by either." ~ co-worker
  #21   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 21-02-2006, 23:23
Jon K. Jon K. is offline
n.e.r.d #6
no team
 
Join Date: May 2002
Rookie Year: 2002
Location: Kokomo, IN
Posts: 1,439
Jon K. has a reputation beyond reputeJon K. has a reputation beyond reputeJon K. has a reputation beyond reputeJon K. has a reputation beyond reputeJon K. has a reputation beyond reputeJon K. has a reputation beyond reputeJon K. has a reputation beyond reputeJon K. has a reputation beyond reputeJon K. has a reputation beyond reputeJon K. has a reputation beyond reputeJon K. has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Off Side Penalty?

At the Winter War Zone scrimmage(the FIRST "testing" ground(as far as I know, it is the first place that FIRST actually sees the game in play by a real robot. Anyone can feel free to correct me via p.m. if that assumption is false.)) the head ref moved a dead bot over to the other side after calling about 30 seconds worth of penalties on the dead bot's alliance.
__________________

#6

Alumnus of FLL 2000 ~ Alumnus of FRC173 2002-2005 ~ Mentor of FRC173 2006-2007 ~ Mentor of FRC 3780 2014
FIRST Volunteer since 2003

Manufacturing Manager
AndyMark, Inc.
http://www.andymark.com
  #22   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 22-02-2006, 00:21
Ethulin Ethulin is offline
Too many hats to count
AKA: Erik Thulin
FRC #0492 (Titan Robotics)
Team Role: Leadership
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Rookie Year: 2003
Location: Seattle
Posts: 245
Ethulin has much to be proud ofEthulin has much to be proud ofEthulin has much to be proud ofEthulin has much to be proud ofEthulin has much to be proud ofEthulin has much to be proud ofEthulin has much to be proud ofEthulin has much to be proud of
Send a message via AIM to Ethulin
Re: Off Side Penalty?

Quote:
Originally Posted by AmyPrib
Well, some don't agree that this is a perfectly legal strategy of plan as outlined by the rules. Perhaps it's time for Q/A to specifically address this actual case.

This is not really a defensive play, persay. As always stated, nobody says Defense is un-GP. The perceived intent behind this strategy is to make your opponents score go to 0, while you sit back and watch, maybe? The rules basically tell you that playing defense on a would-be backbot does you absolutely no good. If one wants to think of this as a legit plan, ok. But I guess I don't understand the advantage of wasting all your time pushing a dead robot, rather than scoring offensively with your partners. To each his own.

If a robot is dead, it's likely that the dead bot could be damanged by the pushing, shoving, beating by the opponent to get it moved on the other side of the line. That is not acceptable and likely will be penalized for damage. I would hope they'd give up if it doesn't budge.

The question is cause of infraction. In G26, if the opponent is preventing you from becoming a backbot, the backbot doesnt' get penalized because they are not causing their own inability to get behind the line. Now if a dead bot is sitting there, they are fine. If the opponent pushes them back to the other side, the opponent caused the infraction, not the deadbot themselves. The alliance did not cause themselves to violate the rule, so if you interpret the rule that way, then no penalty.

Would seem the same logic that applies in the moving case would apply in the dead case. Therefore, the deadbot did not cause his situation, therefore by implication would not be penalized.

Why would they penalize a dead robot who was perfectly fine as a dead backbot minding his own business when they don't penalize a robot that is actually moving to become a backbot but is prevented by the opponent? This logic implies that it does not good for the opponent to try and screw up your ability to get in backbot position.

I will ask Q/A and get it answered. Good debate though.
Excellently articulated response, rep points coming your way. It seems people stretch the rules into a "GP" form a lot in FIRST, something will notice does not happen in other sports. If you want rules to be read that way I suggest you (GDC) write them that way. As a relatively high level soccer referee we subscribe to the philosophy that the simplest interpretation of a rule is the correct one. In soccer the rules are revised if we want to mean something else, we don't make up long winded explanations te justify them. I understand FIRST is different, but if we want it to be a "real" sport we should play by our own rules. The def. of prevent is: "To keep (someone) from doing something; impede". Impede is defined as " To retard or obstruct the progress of". The fatal flaw in your logic is that you say they "caused the penalty". You are 100% correct to say that they put the bot in a situation that allows the bot to incur a penalty, but think of it this way; if you pushed a live bot over the line and backed off and that bot's drivers decided to take their hands off the controls and let it sit there thould it incure the penalty? The other team DID put the bot in the illegal position. The only difference is that the team has the ability to get out of it. The rules do not reference this ability, therefore a penalty should be assessed in both situations.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon K.
At the Winter War Zone scrimmage(the FIRST "testing" ground(as far as I know, it is the first place that FIRST actually sees the game in play by a real robot. Anyone can feel free to correct me via p.m. if that assumption is false.)) the head ref moved a dead bot over to the other side after calling about 30 seconds worth of penalties on the dead bot's alliance.
Jon, I almost really did smile when I read this. Did anyone ask how under the rules he came to the conclusion that this is the right thing to do? If an alliance is too dense to figure out they just got 30 penalty points against them so they should pull one of their bots back then they deserve the next 10. It seems the 30 second mark is so arbitrary. Either you count it or you don't.
__________________
2003 Pacific Northwest Regional Website Award || 2003 Pacific Northwest Regional Finalist || 2003 Pacific Northwest Regional Engineering Inspiration Award || 2004 Pacific Northwest Website Award || 2004 Pacific Northwest Regional Champions (#1 seed) || 2004 Galileo Semi-Finalist || 2005 Pacific Northwest Regional General Motors Industiral Design Award || 2005 Pacific Northwest Regional Champions (#1 seed) || 2005 Galileo Finalist || 2006 Pacific Northwest Regional Chairman's
Stamp Scouting || Titan Robotics

Last edited by Ethulin : 22-02-2006 at 00:30.
  #23   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 22-02-2006, 00:46
Jon K. Jon K. is offline
n.e.r.d #6
no team
 
Join Date: May 2002
Rookie Year: 2002
Location: Kokomo, IN
Posts: 1,439
Jon K. has a reputation beyond reputeJon K. has a reputation beyond reputeJon K. has a reputation beyond reputeJon K. has a reputation beyond reputeJon K. has a reputation beyond reputeJon K. has a reputation beyond reputeJon K. has a reputation beyond reputeJon K. has a reputation beyond reputeJon K. has a reputation beyond reputeJon K. has a reputation beyond reputeJon K. has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Off Side Penalty?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ethulin
Jon, I almost really did smile when I read this. Did anyone ask how under the rules he came to the conclusion that this is the right thing to do? If an alliance is too dense to figure out they just got 30 penalty points against them so they should pull one of their bots back then they deserve the next 10. It seems the 30 second mark is so arbitrary. Either you count it or you don't.
No I didn't count it but I remember there being an aweful lot of penalty points called on its part and thats why the ref moved it.(Mostly because a scrimmage is a testing ground for bots not a real competition and therefore it wasn't really a big deal.)
__________________

#6

Alumnus of FLL 2000 ~ Alumnus of FRC173 2002-2005 ~ Mentor of FRC173 2006-2007 ~ Mentor of FRC 3780 2014
FIRST Volunteer since 2003

Manufacturing Manager
AndyMark, Inc.
http://www.andymark.com
  #24   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 22-02-2006, 07:59
Elgin Clock's Avatar
Elgin Clock Elgin Clock is offline
updates this status less than FB!
AKA: the one who "will break into your thoughts..."
FRC #0237 (Black Magic)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: May 2001
Rookie Year: 2001
Location: H20-Town, Connecticut
Posts: 7,773
Elgin Clock has a reputation beyond reputeElgin Clock has a reputation beyond reputeElgin Clock has a reputation beyond reputeElgin Clock has a reputation beyond reputeElgin Clock has a reputation beyond reputeElgin Clock has a reputation beyond reputeElgin Clock has a reputation beyond reputeElgin Clock has a reputation beyond reputeElgin Clock has a reputation beyond reputeElgin Clock has a reputation beyond reputeElgin Clock has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Elgin Clock
Re: Off Side Penalty?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon K.
No I didn't count it but I remember there being an aweful lot of penalty points called on its part and thats why the ref moved it.(Mostly because a scrimmage is a testing ground for bots not a real competition and therefore it wasn't really a big deal.)
True.

I compiled a video of just that instance last night, and will post it later tonight.
__________________
The influence of many leads to the individuality of one. - E.C.C. (That's me!!)

  #25   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 22-02-2006, 10:14
Nimmy Nimmy is offline
also Head of Strategy\Translation
AKA: Nimrod Amir
FRC #1577 (SteamPunk)
Team Role: Animator
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Rookie Year: 2006
Location: Raanana, Israel
Posts: 128
Nimmy is a jewel in the roughNimmy is a jewel in the roughNimmy is a jewel in the roughNimmy is a jewel in the rough
Send a message via ICQ to Nimmy Send a message via AIM to Nimmy Send a message via MSN to Nimmy
Re: Off Side Penalty?

Quote:
Originally Posted by GaryV1188
Well, it would be a 45 point penalty - 5 points for the initial infraction itself, plus 5 points for each 5-second continuation in the offside position. I wouldn't look kindly on such a strategy, but I'm not the GDC or a referee.

Btw, I just noticed your full name. You may be interested in this link: http://www.bookstore.mtu.edu/michtec...F PG74AB598AB The Watersmeet (the name of a very small town in the Upper Peninsula of Michigan) Nimrods were mentioned on ESPN as having an "interesting" mascot name. They got so many requests for apparel they had to outsource it to the Michigan Tech bookstore to fulfill orders.
actually, the first -5 you get AFTER 5 seconds have gone by,
so lets do the math
at 35 seconds=-5
at 30 seconds=-10
at 25 seconds=-15
at 20 seconds=-20
at 15 seconds=-25
at 10 seconds=-30
at 05 seconds=-35
now assuming that no one is gonna wait the entire 40 seconds, and will probably head back at around 38, you might actually get a -35 instead of a -40, in any case -45 is NOT possible by this kind of penalty ALONE,

I didn't get the whole Nimrod thing,
in any case don't make fun of my name...Nimrod is the guy who ENGINEERED the BABYLON TOWERS! so HA! (how FIRST of me hehe)...

about the defensive strategy DJ proposed, I think it's great, really "out of the box" thinking, and I wouldn't have any problem doing it UNLESS it so happens to be that while pushing the other bot (for example if he tipped over), that bot's sensitive parts might be harmed, that could be VERY expensive to repair...

now here's a question, if that bot tipped, and when pushed, it's components tear-apart the carpet and or poof balls, who's fault is it? the pushed bot, or the bot which is doing the pusher?

if it's the pushed bot's fault, will it still get a penalty after pushing the ES buttom?
__________________
We cannot enter into alliances until we are acquainted with the designs of our neighbors.
- Sun Tzu

I guess someone should tell Mr. Tzu about FIRST

check out our HERBEW translation to the 2006 game manual at: http://www.avivrobotics.net

Don't mess with Nimrod's
  #26   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 22-02-2006, 10:50
GaryVoshol's Avatar
GaryVoshol GaryVoshol is offline
Cogito ergo arbitro
no team
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Rookie Year: 2000
Location: Royal Oak, MI
Posts: 5,757
GaryVoshol has a reputation beyond reputeGaryVoshol has a reputation beyond reputeGaryVoshol has a reputation beyond reputeGaryVoshol has a reputation beyond reputeGaryVoshol has a reputation beyond reputeGaryVoshol has a reputation beyond reputeGaryVoshol has a reputation beyond reputeGaryVoshol has a reputation beyond reputeGaryVoshol has a reputation beyond reputeGaryVoshol has a reputation beyond reputeGaryVoshol has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Off Side Penalty?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nimmy
actually, the first -5 you get AFTER 5 seconds have gone by,
so lets do the math
at 35 seconds=-5
at 30 seconds=-10
at 25 seconds=-15
at 20 seconds=-20
at 15 seconds=-25
at 10 seconds=-30
at 05 seconds=-35
now assuming that no one is gonna wait the entire 40 seconds, and will probably head back at around 38, you might actually get a -35 instead of a -40, in any case -45 is NOT possible by this kind of penalty ALONE,
There is a 5-second grace period "to allow an ALLIANCE to get their BACKBOT “ON SIDES”, however, the BACKBOT must be moving toward the mid-field line at the start of the period." (Rule <G35>) If the robot is already dead, it won't be moving back toward mid-field, so does the grace period apply? If it does, then 40 is the max. If not, it will get the initial 5 point penalty immediately. <G35> also says that the additional penalties per 5-second increment begin accruing after the grace period ends, so again, the question becomes, will the dead bot get a grace period?

We might note that a live robot could get significantly more than 40 points in penalties, if it continuously wavers offside and onside. If this was done about once per second for the entire 40 seconds - WOW, a 200 point penalty!

Quote:
I didn't get the whole Nimrod thing,
in any case don't make fun of my name...Nimrod is the guy who ENGINEERED the BABYLON TOWERS! so HA! (how FIRST of me hehe)...
I had no intent of making fun of your name. I knew Nimrod is a name that appears in Genesis. The school mascot is based on Viking lore. I posted the link in case you wanted to order a shirt with your name on it ...

The reason ESPN thought the name "interesting" is that nimrod is a somewhat derogatory term meaning a silly or foolish person. dictionary.com thinks that meaning derives from a Bugs Bunny cartoon, where Bugs describes Elmer Fudd as a "poor little Nimrod". Elmer of course was always hunting Bugs, and Nimrod was a hunter - but Elmer was a very ineffectual hunter, so Bugs clearly didn't mean it as praise.
  #27   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 22-02-2006, 11:57
Nimmy Nimmy is offline
also Head of Strategy\Translation
AKA: Nimrod Amir
FRC #1577 (SteamPunk)
Team Role: Animator
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Rookie Year: 2006
Location: Raanana, Israel
Posts: 128
Nimmy is a jewel in the roughNimmy is a jewel in the roughNimmy is a jewel in the roughNimmy is a jewel in the rough
Send a message via ICQ to Nimmy Send a message via AIM to Nimmy Send a message via MSN to Nimmy
Re: Off Side Penalty?

Quote:
Originally Posted by GaryV1188
There is a 5-second grace period "to allow an ALLIANCE to get their BACKBOT “ON SIDES”, however, the BACKBOT must be moving toward the mid-field line at the start of the period." (Rule <G35>) If the robot is already dead, it won't be moving back toward mid-field, so does the grace period apply? If it does, then 40 is the max. If not, it will get the initial 5 point penalty immediately. <G35> also says that the additional penalties per 5-second increment begin accruing after the grace period ends, so again, the question becomes, will the dead bot get a grace period?

We might note that a live robot could get significantly more than 40 points in penalties, if it continuously wavers offside and onside. If this was done about once per second for the entire 40 seconds - WOW, a 200 point penalty!

I had no intent of making fun of your name. I knew Nimrod is a name that appears in Genesis. The school mascot is based on Viking lore. I posted the link in case you wanted to order a shirt with your name on it ...

The reason ESPN thought the name "interesting" is that nimrod is a somewhat derogatory term meaning a silly or foolish person. dictionary.com thinks that meaning derives from a Bugs Bunny cartoon, where Bugs describes Elmer Fudd as a "poor little Nimrod". Elmer of course was always hunting Bugs, and Nimrod was a hunter - but Elmer was a very ineffectual hunter, so Bugs clearly didn't mean it as praise.
I know all about my name, trust me (I even added a link in the sig), =) I love it
and yeha I even know that episode buggs rocks =)

in anycase about the rules
isn't the backbot allowed to get across the line for 5 seconds?
if not...man DJ's strategy could get pretty mean, I mean who cares about scoring, just have one bot pushing him unto one side, and another pushing it to the other side, you get so many points in penalty for the other team you don't NEED to score
__________________
We cannot enter into alliances until we are acquainted with the designs of our neighbors.
- Sun Tzu

I guess someone should tell Mr. Tzu about FIRST

check out our HERBEW translation to the 2006 game manual at: http://www.avivrobotics.net

Don't mess with Nimrod's
  #28   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 22-02-2006, 13:01
DjAlamose's Avatar
DjAlamose DjAlamose is offline
Registered User
AKA: Teh Albie
FRC #0279 (Tech Fusion)
Team Role: College Student
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Rookie Year: 2003
Location: Toledo, OH
Posts: 343
DjAlamose is a splendid one to beholdDjAlamose is a splendid one to beholdDjAlamose is a splendid one to beholdDjAlamose is a splendid one to beholdDjAlamose is a splendid one to beholdDjAlamose is a splendid one to beholdDjAlamose is a splendid one to beholdDjAlamose is a splendid one to behold
Send a message via AIM to DjAlamose
Re: Off Side Penalty?

If it is a robot that can move then no penalties will be assessed per <g26> but if it is a deadbot then penalties (from my interpretation will be assessed). But that still doesn't mean that you don't need to score points. It is not only bad to do this but not wise. Your standings at the competition are based on how many points your OPONENT gets at the end of the match not by your score (only if you win of course). So it would not be wise to make your opponent get zero pts. BUT because the number of QP (qualifying points) gained is the lowest number before penalties this could be good. here is how QP is given:

No penalties: Opponents score
You had penalties: Opponents score
Opponent had penalties (and without penalties would have won the match): your score
Opponent had penalties (would have lost even without): their score before penalties.
Both have penalties: either opponents score before penalties or your score with penalties, whichever is highest.
(should be right unless it has changed)

Now that I have confused you, If could be advantageous to use this strategy (i wouldn't no matter what) for QP seeing that their score to begin with is higher and your score is lower (before penalties). This is the only time that I can see it beneficial. Plus this year with real time scoring it will be easier to decide if we should score for the opponent to get more QP. (yes I would do this because if you can then you must have a good robot, plus you help them out with QP)

Again, I brought out this strategy to let people know about it so if it does happen they can have an idea as to what actions should be taken. Also, Hey Amy, has the GDC answered the question yet?
__________________
WHAT TIME IS IT????? 279!!


2006 GLR Safety Award (2nd year in a row)
2005 National Xerox Creativity Award
2005 National Curie Quarter Finalist w/ 1126 and 180
2005 Buckeye Regional Champs w/ 67 and 274
2005 Buckeye Regional GM Industrial Design Award
2005 Buckeye Regional Safety Award
2005 GLR Quarter Finalist
2005 GLR Xerox Creativity Award
2005 GLR Safety Award
2004 Nationals Curie Division Finalist
2004 GLR Champs
2004 Buckeye Delphi Driving Tomorrow Award
2004 Buckeye Quarter Finalist w/ 1001 and 869
2003 GM Industrial Design Award GLR
2001 National Champs
  #29   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 22-02-2006, 13:48
Ethulin Ethulin is offline
Too many hats to count
AKA: Erik Thulin
FRC #0492 (Titan Robotics)
Team Role: Leadership
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Rookie Year: 2003
Location: Seattle
Posts: 245
Ethulin has much to be proud ofEthulin has much to be proud ofEthulin has much to be proud ofEthulin has much to be proud ofEthulin has much to be proud ofEthulin has much to be proud ofEthulin has much to be proud ofEthulin has much to be proud of
Send a message via AIM to Ethulin
Re: Off Side Penalty?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DjAlamose
has the GDC answered the question yet?
No they have not.
__________________
2003 Pacific Northwest Regional Website Award || 2003 Pacific Northwest Regional Finalist || 2003 Pacific Northwest Regional Engineering Inspiration Award || 2004 Pacific Northwest Website Award || 2004 Pacific Northwest Regional Champions (#1 seed) || 2004 Galileo Semi-Finalist || 2005 Pacific Northwest Regional General Motors Industiral Design Award || 2005 Pacific Northwest Regional Champions (#1 seed) || 2005 Galileo Finalist || 2006 Pacific Northwest Regional Chairman's
Stamp Scouting || Titan Robotics
  #30   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 22-02-2006, 13:50
AmyPrib's Avatar
AmyPrib AmyPrib is offline
Registered User
no team
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Rookie Year: 2003
Location: Indianapolis, IN
Posts: 688
AmyPrib has a reputation beyond reputeAmyPrib has a reputation beyond reputeAmyPrib has a reputation beyond reputeAmyPrib has a reputation beyond reputeAmyPrib has a reputation beyond reputeAmyPrib has a reputation beyond reputeAmyPrib has a reputation beyond reputeAmyPrib has a reputation beyond reputeAmyPrib has a reputation beyond reputeAmyPrib has a reputation beyond reputeAmyPrib has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Off Side Penalty?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DjAlamose
Also, Hey Amy, has the GDC answered the question yet?
Nope, it hasn't been posted to Q/A yet by the GDC. Doesn't look there has been any activity today on Q/A.
You can check yourself also at yttp://www.usfirst.org/robotics/2006/qa.htm . The subject title was "Dead backbot".

Also, Ethulin, good points! However, your example of
Quote:
"You are 100% correct to say that they put the bot in a situation that allows the bot to incur a penalty, but think of it this way; if you pushed a live bot over the line and backed off and that bot's drivers decided to take their hands off the controls and let it sit there thould it incure the penalty? The other team DID put the bot in the illegal position. The only difference is that the team has the ability to get out of it. The rules do not reference this ability, therefore a penalty should be assessed in both situations.
Unless they foolishly take their hands off the controls and sit there, like your example, they won't get a penalty. Chances are, the pushed bot will be trying to get back over to his backbot position, and therefore, if the opponent tries to prevent him from doing so, G26 kicks in again, and no penalty assessed. I suppose your situation could happen, but honestly it doesn't seem realistic to me... why would a backbot just sit there and take the penalties after they got shoved around by the opponent? There might be a reason, but.... I'll take the odds that they will try to get back.

The GDC might just make a difference between dead and live bots. We shall see soon hopefully.
I like health of this debate.
__________________

Co-Chair Boilermaker Regional Planning Committee 2004-2011
2008 St. Louis Regional Finalists and Engineering Inspiration Award
2007 St. Louis Regional Champions - Thanks 1444 & 829! / St. Louis and Boilermaker Quality Award
2006 Boilermaker Chairman's Award
Referee - IRI - 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008
2005 Midwest Regional - Semifinalist, Engineering Inspiration Award, and Safety Award / Boilermaker Regional - Judges Award
2004 Midwest Regional Champions - Thanks 269 and 930! / IRI Runner-Up - Thanks to 234 and 447!!!
2004 Championship: Archimedes Finalist - Thanks 716 and 1272!
"We are going to be praised and criticized more than we deserve. We are not to be affected by either." ~ co-worker
Closed Thread


Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
New Penalty Thread - skrussel General Forum 25 12-03-2006 09:37
2 human players on one side? Sscamatt Rules/Strategy 11 22-02-2004 23:34
scoring penalty unfair archiver 2000 4 23-06-2002 23:55
About the light that need to be seen from four side archiver 2000 3 23-06-2002 23:01
Goal on side... What's the final word! archiver 2001 4 23-06-2002 22:39


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:00.

The Chief Delphi Forums are sponsored by Innovation First International, Inc.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © Chief Delphi