Please read R17

[ChuckDickerson]

The problem I see with the Fix-It-Windows as written is that FIRST is attempting to level the playing field by regulating the clock time spent after ship day. However, clock time does not equal man hours and therefore FIRST may be inadvertently stretching the gap between the "have" and "have not" teams even further. Two, four, or even 10 five hour "Fix-It-Windows" are not the same for a 10 student, 2 mentor, team with only a hacksaw and a drill press and team with 50+ students, 10 mentors and a million dollar CNC machine shop. A better Fix-It-Window rule might be to specify a set number of total man hours that a team can use at their discretion after ship day. Maybe a big team is heading to 2 or 3 regionals and wants to use all of their alloted man hours early after ship day. What about a small team that can only use their sponsor's machine shop on weekend? Maybe that team can only afford to go to one regional and are going to one of the latter regionals and need to spread out the alloted man hours over all of the weekends preceding their regional. What difference does it make if a team needs to work on Friday night or Saturdays, etc. We are all on the honor system to abide by the Fix-It-Window rules. What difference does it make when a team use their alloted time due to their members schedules?

[sanddrag]

Originally Posted by DeepWater

What difference does it make when a team use their alloted time due to their members schedules?

It doesn't. Which is why I hope they change it for next year. An hour is an hour is an hour no matter when or where you spend it.

[Jack Jones]

I don't want to put words in FIRST's mouth, but this seems to me to be a pretty clear attempt to force engineers in FIRST to NOT work on FIRST.

The irony is that they have over achieved.

As much as we’d like to put on a show and to be all that we can be, I would not think of asking our buyer to put that Kevlar order aside and order us some aircraft grade aluminum tube because powers-that-be demand we have the robot done on Tuesday, and the spare helix done by Friday. I would not consider asking our welders to put that HWMMV kit away and weld us up some drive platforms because the team across town worries that we’d tilt the playing field if we came in this weekend. I won’t ask the kids and teachers to do their five hours after midnight because that’s the only time Bob and I get to use the water jets.

We want to be a positive force in our community, and maybe to encourage our country’s best and brightest to go to work for the ones who’ve put themselves in harm’s way.

We don’t need the powers-that-be to schedule our priorities. We’re well aware of what they are. It will always be first things first – lower case. If that becomes unworkable, then that’s a shame.

[Don Wright]

Originally Posted by sanddrag

As is having to ship the RC, when we can legally buy another one and program on that.

Except you can't...because IFI is out of them...as well as camera housings.

[Joe Johnson]

Originally Posted by Don Wright

Except you can't...because IFI is out of them...as well as camera housings.

Really???? Hmmm... ...again, I have no inside information, but it does seem strange to me that IFI is out of a product they have used for several years.

It could just be a production problem (perhaps some chip is out of stock)

But... ...perhaps there is another explanation...

...Are they running down their stock because they are totally redesigning the RC for next year??? I don't know, but it is an interesting thought...

Joe J.

[JVN]

Originally Posted by Don Wright

Except you can't...because IFI is out of them...as well as camera housings.

You could always upgrade your previous RCs to the 2006 model for $120.

-JV

[JVN]

Originally Posted by Jack Jones

We don’t need the powers-that-be to schedule our priorities.

However...
There is escalation in FIRST.
Team AA builds a shifting transmission, and increases the level of competition. Now lots of other teams think they need a shifting transmission to keep up.

Team BB has a swerve drive, so now others feel the need for a swerve drive to be competitive.

Team CC has the resources to build 2 robots and give their drivers TONS of practice time/robot tweaking time, so now many more teams feel the need to do this.

Jack,
We can set our own priorities, but in some cases that means making the decision to put in a substantial amount of extra time, or being less competitive (due to this escalation). Many of us (most of us) would put in the extra time, because we care, and because we strive to achieve.

FIRST it seems, would elminate this decision, by eliminiating the escalation.
Any teams that want a practice bot, needed to get it done earlier. If you couldn't get both done before the end of the 6-weeks, then you should have made some hard compromises. (i.e. we can't build 2 swerve drives, but we can build 2 6WD robots, we'll do 6WD instead.) These compromises may not be pleasant (why be ambitious and risk missing the deadline?) but them seem to have become necessary.

-JV

[Don Wright]

Originally Posted by JVN

You could always upgrade your previous RCs to the 2006 model for $120.

-JV

Got the RMA number this morning and a 2004 RC is going to FED-EX shortly to get it there before y'all leave for the first weekend in battle...

[Andy Baker]

Originally Posted by JVN

Maybe that's the point. You need to be DONE in 6 weeks; then back to your kids and job.

It seems like FIRST is making a statement saying "Dragging this out into a 12 week process, is not what we intend to happen. 6 weeks, means 6 weeks."

Like Joe, I don't want to put words in FIRST's mouth, but this seems to me to be a pretty clear attempt to force engineers in FIRST to NOT work on FIRST. "Ok, robots have shipped, go do real work and wait for regionals."

I'm not saying I agree (in fact, I don't), but this could be a direction the powers-that-be want us to take.

-JV

Then why do they put out answers on the Q&A like this?

(here is the link)

Pasted word-for-word for clarity below.

Originally Posted by FIRST Q&A

02-07-2006, 09:14 AM

Subject: Practicing with 2nd Robot after build season

Question: Can a team build a 2nd robot and practice with it after the build season, prior to regional and national competitions?

Answer: Senior Member
Re: Practicing with 2nd Robot after build season

Yes, this is permitted. But no part of the second robot, since it is built outside the FRC build period, may be transferred to the competition robot and used at a competition event.

This approves building (or fixing hardware, etc.) a practice robot after the ship date, as long as nothing altered or developed will ever be in a FIRST competition.

Andy B.

[Don Wright]

I wasn't going to reply because I agree with a lot of what has been said in this thread and I feel that it is like the "how much should the mentors do vs. how much should the students do" debate. It will rage on forever and both sides have their points. I do have some viewpoints from some of the statements.

- I think saying teams that have a second robot and use it for practice is not cheating and saying that the teams that do are cheating, is unfair.

- The spare parts we have were either made before ship date or will be made during the fix-it-windows next week. We were all just too burned out getting the robot ship-ready to take advantage of the fix-it-windows last week. We did finish our robot enough to get several hours of practice in before it ships which was nice.

- I think shipping the RC (or electrical board) only hurts those teams that can't afford a second RC and victors and spikes and it probably prevents them from building a second robot...giving them the advantage of practice like the "have" teams.

- I believe I understand what FIRST is trying to do with the rules, but I think it is a very difficult thing to do. And I don't think the rules are really accomplishing the goal. But, I hate people who pick apart the rules and don't propose a solution, so...

1. Forget the specified "fix-it-windows". Just say that after ship date before the first tournament weekend, all teams can only build spare and replacement parts if you are going to use them on the competition robot. Programming is not allowed.

2. From 8am EST on March 2 (beginning of the first tournaments), all teams can make spare and upgrade parts and parts until 5 pm Saturday night, EST. Programming is allowed.

3. From 5 pm Saturday night, EST until 8am EST March 9, teams that competed that weekend are allowed to make spare and upgrade parts, and program. Teams that did not compete, can only make spare parts, no programming.

Repeat for the rest of the season. the 25 pound rule applies to all parts that are not off the shelf replacements.

I figure this gives all teams the chance to make parts, upgrade or just spare, at their home shop, and yet does not have unlimited time for all teams and punish those who compete early.

Of course, as I type this, I start arguing with myself about this... But, they are just my thoughts...

[KenWittlief]

One of the aspects of human nature that never fails to amaze me, you can tell someone:

this is whats going to happen, then this is how you are going to feel, and then this will be your reaction, and then this will be the result...

and then the person follows those steps exactly, and acts like some strange thing is happening to them - when you TOLD them ahead of time!

A few years back Dean Kamen spoke the following words at the kickoff meeting:

>>> "At some point in the next few weeks you are going to feel like you are involved in some robot building contest, and then you are in serious trouble!"<<<

Does FIRST need a creed? Do we all need to join hands before each meeting and recite the creed? Would it help?

FIRST is not a robot building contest
FIRST is not designed to enterain the masses
FIRST is not fair
FIRST will never be fair
We need to inspire students to be engineers and scientist or the standard of living in our country will plummet.

I gotta say it - many of the people posting in this thread ARE in serious trouble!

How can you possible think 8 kids with one mentor in a HS shop class can EVER compete against a team with 30 students, 20 engineers, and the entire assets and resources of GM at their beck and call?

Would you think those 8 kids could design and build CARS in their shop class and out sell GM, or any other corporation? Then why do you think they can do the same designing a robot?!

Teams with big money and vast resources are going to be top competitors - this is not a question of fairness, its reality! If FIRST gave you from now until the sun winks out, that wont change anything.

Stay focused on the prize! If your students go on to become engineers then you have accomplished something meaningfull. (Mentors that run around ranting at FIRST are not going to inspire anyone).

If a bunch of people sit in bleachers for 6 hours and think you have created the most entertaining poof ball flinging robot in your region then by the time they get home and flip on the TV nobody will care!

[Swan217]

Originally Posted by KenWittlief

How can you possible think 8 kids with one mentor in a HS shop class can EVER compete against a team with 30 students, 20 engineers, and the entire assests and resources of GM at their beck and call?

Would you think those 8 kids could design and build CARS in their shop class and out sell GM, or any other corporation? Then why do you think they can do the same designing a robot?!

Teams with big money and vast resources are going to be top competitors - this is not a question of fairness, its reality! If FIRST gave you from now until the sun winks out, that wont change anything.

Ken, I think you've hit the nail on the head here. There is too much of this "levelling the playing field" talk. If a team doesn't have 10 engineers and 5 teachers and 40 students, is that the fault of FIRST or of the team? If the team wanted to compete on a "level" playing field with these teams, then they'd find a way to do it - increase fundraising activity, promotions, etc. This whole thing has nothing to do with "levelling the playing field."

That being said, there is no reason that a team should be artificially stopped from innovating their design once the product is shipped. Engineering at a big business never stops when they release their product. If a team has the resources to maintain their pace making spare parts or upgrades after they ship the robot, I believe that they should keep doing so. If you don't, then the next week or two should be a good time to relax and unwind.

The line is already drawn at the competition. You must recreate the upgrades from scratch at the competition. You are only allowed 25 lbs of FABRICATED ITEMS and must follow all of the rest of rules R21-R29. This makes the fixit windows redundant and pointless.

It's like one class I had. After each test, we had a 2 minute "pencil-down contemplation period" followed by a 2 minute "open note" period. The contemplation period is pointless, because if you're not done with the test by this point, the two minute open note part isn't going to get you much further. The open note period only helps the people that have an answer or two "on the tip of their pencil" and need a slight reminder, and since they're most likely already done with the test at this point, they spend the "contemplation period" twiddling their thumbs.

The same can be related to this issue. The teams that are struggling to get their robot together before ship aren't going to be helped by these Fixit windows, since they probably don't have the resources anyways, and the teams that do have the resources have probably already made extra parts during the season and are most likely using the time off for further upgrades. These robots are most likely far more complicated anyways, and if you can successfully build a complicated robot, and have it work beautifully, then you should be able to take all the time you want perfecting your "practice" bot. You still only have the Thursday of the competition and 25 lbs of material to do the same tweaks on your competition bot.

[JVN]

Originally Posted by Andy Baker

Then why do they put out answers on the Q&A like this?

Andy B.

Hadn't seen that Andy, thanks for pointing it out.
(The Q&A is something I haven't put in the effort to follow this year, not being on a team.)

To answer your question, I have no idea.
Maybe they just ruled that way, because they knew

It's possible I'm misreading things and nothing I've said above is valid. I can't (and won't) speak for the powers that be, I've only issued my interpretation; but I'd like to believe there is some intent here beyond making Paul (and others) aggravated.

*shrug*
-JV

[sanddrag]

One kind of interesting note, is that while I'm not supposed to be developing upgrades for this year's robot (and I'm not), I am already designing next year's transmission (and am doing so legally).

[Paul Copioli]

Warning! The post got long. read only the first paragraph and you will be fine. Read past the first paragraph and I may make you angry....

As many of you reading my posts in this thread have inferred, I am frustrated with the rule. Why? There are several reasons, but the number one reason is that I had 40 inspired and excited kids on ship day and they are dropping by the day. Is this my fault? Maybe. Is it because I keep telling them, "no, we can't do that because then we can't use it at Detroit (our first comp), so we must wait until after [xxxx]"? Probably. Is it because when they ask me "why?" I can't give them an answer other than, "because it is in the rules and we must obey the rules"? Most definitely, yes. I can't muster up any B.S. to give them a logical reason for the rule. Bottom line is that this rule does not help anything. I have offered my services in the past (see: kit transmission of '04 and '05) and things got better. I will offer them again .. let's see if FIRST takes me up on it.

Now, let's talk about the robots since we do actually have to build them and we pay good money to "play" the game. Without the game, there is no FIRST ... period.

FIRST is sending us mixed signals. We are told (by the rules that are drafted) to finish our robots earlier. We are also having the use of sensors pushed down our throats (see kit of parts sensor listing). Take it from a real robotics engineer who makes robots for a living: using external sensors ALWAYS means more debug time. This is a simple fact. Even if the sensor is "plug and play", real world obstacles come up and have to be debugged. If the students are not allowed to spend the necessary debug time, they will simply get frustrated and stop trying. Those of us that know what it feels like to get a complex machine running after debugging many small problems must share that experience with the students (and anyone else who doesn't know the feeling). Rule R17 goes against that very principle.

#1. I do not like R17 because it doesn't enhance the ability for mentors like me to inspire the students.

#2. I do not like R17 because it hinders the ability for the robots to put on a great show.

#3. I do not like rule R17 because it forces me to be away from my family for two more days after ship if I want to get around #1 and #2.

If you accuse me of not getting FIRST, then you don't know me.

Regards,

Paul