Week 1: Thoughts, comments

[Billfred]

Alright, I'm going to nit-pick here.

Is it possible to have a more viewer-friendly ranking screen? I remember the rankings in 2004 were great, with numbers and team names in large friendly letters. You had your rank, the short name, the W/L/T, and average RP. This year, the look is cluttered, and it doesn't really fit well visually with the other graphics shown on the big screen (save, perhaps, the sponsors loop showing at VCU). I can't even make out the headings--I can only guess some things based on context (for example, nothing besides the W/L/T record has a format of 3-4-1).

That said, I can decently track what's on the field, and the announcements of the next periods came in clearly for me. It might be a VCU thing, but it works well. Tracking who's ahead is decent, but they really need to leave the RTS up.

Flags seem to be doing a well enough job for me.

Excuse the nit-picking,

Billfred

[Barry Bonzack]

I'm wanting to know more about the ramp. I read here that usually 1 or 2 robots per alliance make it up, but with trouble. Are the 5 extra points really worth that 10 seconds? Do most teams at least try for it, or are they scoring to the bitter end and ignoring it like the behind the line bonus from last year? Are there many robots that fall over whiling trying to get up the ramp like expected?

Couple other questions...

• Do defense robots nest next to the corner goals like everyone has been speculating?
• What is the normal strategy for free for all period? Is there more scoring or defense?
• Are comebacks often from alliances that don't win autonomous mode?
• how hard really is it to tell if your on offense or defense if you are the drivers/coach/hp?

I am going to try to catch more matches tomorrow, I have to go to a friend's house with the NASA channel. Good luck to all teams, thanks to everyone in advance.

[ZZII 527]

It is definitely a fun game! I think it is well-balanced in that it gives veterans a good chance to show off by shooting and rookies a fair shot with the corner goals and defense.

Previous posts have said most of what I observed. But, I am in the process of re-rendering some BAE footage for the web and will post in about an hour so you can see for yourself.

[Conor Ryan]

From the NJ regional point of view:

Originally Posted by Barry Bonzack

I'm wanting to know more about the ramp. I read here that usually 1 or 2 robots per alliance make it up, but with trouble. Are the 5 extra points really worth that 10 seconds? Do most teams at least try for it, or are they scoring to the bitter end and ignoring it like the behind the line bonus from last year? Are there many robots that fall over whiling trying to get up the ramp like expected?

2 robots on the ramp appears to be max, 3 I've yet to see done, more teams are having problems with the ramp then everyone has expected. If you have balls at 10 seconds, then don't go up the ramp, just get into open space and get that shot off, if you don't have any balls then if its open, communicate with the other drivers and start getting up on the ramp. (read on for more on this)

Originally Posted by Barry Bonzack

• Do defense robots nest next to the corner goals like everyone has been speculating?

Nope, they are harassing the teams that are trying to get shots off. Mostly defencive robots are congregating within a 5 foot radius of the center ramp, that area also happens to be where 98% of all tipped robots i've seen are.

Originally Posted by Barry Bonzack

• What is the normal strategy for free for all period? Is there more scoring or defense?

This all depends on the strength of your robot, if you can shoot, generally you are scoring points. If you can't shoot, your playing defence. Not soo many people are going for the ramp, I don't think I've seen any 25 point bonuses at all, and in most matches only one robot from either alliance makes it onto a platform. However it is common to see traffic jams at the base of a platform at then end of a match, some robots are being very effective at just sitting at the base of the ramp stopping people from going up.

Originally Posted by Barry Bonzack

• Are comebacks often from alliances that don't win autonomous mode?

If you have a working autonomous mode, you having a working shooter/dumper that alone sets you way ahead, however if you have a team that has a great robot but needs work on the autonomous its possible to make up the difference. I'd imagine winning autonomous will make a much bigger difference in playoffs though.

Originally Posted by Barry Bonzack

• how hard really is it to tell if your on offense or defense if you are the drivers/coach/hp?

The light above the goal is how you check this, just look up across the field and if its green then you can shoot. If its not, then don't, the sounds though I found harder to pick up, but watch the light and look at the countdown clock.

[Rick TYler]

Most of my comments are in the PNW Regional thread. Here's one I missed:

Ball sweeping is WAY more important than most teams thought. Slow sweepers suck. The very few great sweepers that can collect balls at full speed (like 848 and 254) rule. I think it is my greatest surprise in a mechanical sense.

I think the game rules. MUCH more fun to watch than last year, and few matches are determined by penalties.

[Petey]

Originally Posted by Greg Perkins

Paraphrase: DEAR HOLY LORD IS THIS GAME CONFUSING

Yeah, you got that right. It was hard enough to keep track of for me, and I'm a veteran of Strategy and Gaming!

I found myself asking teammates whether or not teams were offsides a great deal. And heaven forbid you were a spectator. I took more than one person outside to watch the animation again more than once. Hell, the whole concept of an alliance takes most non-FIRSTers some time to grasp.

I mean, this isn't really a gripe. It's simply a observation that...well, as one of my friends put it after watching 562's noodle machine spin balls around, "I would concentrate on the game but oooh...pretty spinning colors!"

Wow.

Also: what was up with the BAE scoring system? For almost all of the finals the scores were read but not displayed.

And can anyone from the match we were in vs. 296 (when we tied them 8 vs 8) explain how by the beard of Zeus we tied 8 to 8 when there were no penalties and the live scoring read 55 to 8?

Originally Posted by ZZII 527

It is definitely a fun game! I think it is well-balanced in that it gives veterans a good chance to show off by shooting and rookies a fair shot with the corner goals and defense.

Previous posts have said most of what I observed. But, I am in the process of re-rendering some BAE footage for the web and will post in about an hour so you can see for yourself.

Dude, I'd love some of that footage. Especially of Kaizan or Northern Force...both of those teams had an extreme factor when it came to shooting.

And really...even most veteran teams didn't master shooting...

--Petey

[George A.]

Originally Posted by Petey

I found myself asking teammates whether or not teams were offsides a great deal. And heaven forbid you were a spectator. I took more than one person outside to watch the animation again more than once. Hell, the whole concept of an alliance takes most non-FIRSTers some time to grasp.

I mean, this isn't really a gripe. It's simply a observation that...well, as one of my friends put it after watching 562's noodle machine spin balls around, "I would concentrate on the game but oooh...pretty spinning colors!"


Also: what was up with the BAE scoring system? For almost all of the finals the scores were read but not displayed.


And really...even most veteran teams didn't master shooting...

--Petey

I think everyone was at the wrong regional this weekend. NJ went really well and we didn't experience any of the problems other people are bringing up. The game is simple...whenever the green light above the colored ring is lit the corresponding allaince is on offense, and one member of the opposing allaince has to be the back bot.

As for shooting, we had some amazing shooters...25,103,293,522,1089 just to name a few. Once the members of 25 post some video it should be easier.

There was a glitch in the scoring system so when the elimination match scores were posted the winning allaince would have the correct scores, and the losing allaince would have 0...so that's probably why they didn't post the scores to avoid confusion.

I'm sure that all these problems will be resolved in future weeks.

[Petey]

Originally Posted by M.O.R.T.

There was a glitch in the scoring system so when the elimination match scores were posted the winning allaince would have the correct scores, and the losing allaince would have 0...so that's probably why they didn't post the scores to avoid confusion.

I'm sure that all these problems will be resolved in future weeks.

No, they had a weird glitch that looked like it was affecting the scores.

Like, the real-time scoring would read, "65-21", and the top score (score without penalties) would read that, and then there would no penalties, and then the final score would be "46-33" without explanation.

It was very strange and had I been the losing team on some of them, I would have raised the issue with the judges. For instance, we tied 296's alliance at one point 8-8 after they'd been leading us 55-8 in the real time scoring.

Oh, and 296 got screwed over on their only loss. They sight by the green light, and it didn't go on in autonomous. They have it on tape, and I saw it with my own eyes while it happened. However, rather than doing a field reset, the refs and judges merely said that it was impossible and that it couldn't have happened. Except for those anomalies, 296 would have been 9-0 at BAE.

--Petey

[George A.]

Originally Posted by Petey

No, they had a weird glitch that looked like it was affecting the scores.

Like, the real-time scoring would read, "65-21", and the top score (score without penalties) would read that, and then there would no penalties, and then the final score would be "46-33" without explanation.

It was very strange and had I been the losing team on some of them, I would have raised the issue with the judges. For instance, we tied 296's alliance at one point 8-8 after they'd been leading us 55-8 in the real time scoring.

Oh, and 296 got screwed over on their only loss. They sight by the green light, and it didn't go on in autonomous. They have it on tape, and I saw it with my own eyes while it happened. However, rather than doing a field reset, the refs and judges merely said that it was impossible and that it couldn't have happened. Except for those anomalies, 296 would have been 9-0 at BAE.

--Petey

I do know that the scoring system was even worse before the updates they added. That really bites that you guys got screwed over. At NJ if there was a problem with the field (ie: autonomous not firing, green lights not going on) and it was in fact the field fault, then we did have to replay the match...in fact we had to replay SF 1 Match 1 3 times before it ran correctly.

[Petey]

Originally Posted by M.O.R.T.

I do know that the scoring system was even worse before the updates they added. That really bites that you guys got screwed over. At NJ if there was a problem with the field (ie: autonomous not firing, green lights not going on) and it was in fact the field fault, then we did have to replay the match...in fact we had to replay SF 1 Match 1 3 times before it ran correctly.

Nah, we didn't get screwed over...296 did! We got the benefit of the screwup. I just felt bad for them, honestly, because we tied them in a match where it seemed like we should have lost.

And meaubry...yeah a ton of robots tipped. It was surprising, but not entirely unexpected, and could be exploited (fairly) by smart robots.

--Petey

[Nuttyman54]

Originally Posted by Petey

They have it on tape, and I saw it with my own eyes while it happened. However, rather than doing a field reset, the refs and judges merely said that it was impossible and that it couldn't have happened.

It's really disturbing how many refs and judges appear to be shrugging problems off this year. I know team 1294 had 2 robots on the ramp at PNW, and they didn't get counted. The reffs eventually counted one, but not 2 (which would have won them the match) The full story is here

[Rick TYler]

How can third-, fourth-, and fifth-year teams show up at tournaments 20+ pounds overweight? I am dumbstruck at how much swisscheesifying and component removage I saw at PNW. We were bummed that we were three pounds over (last year we were over by 20 ounces), and we know we aren't the sharpest knife in the FIRST drawer.

[Petey]

Originally Posted by Nuttyman54

It's really disturbing how many refs and judges appear to be shrugging problems off this year. I know team 1294 had 2 robots on the ramp at PNW, and they didn't get counted. The reffs eventually counted one, but not 2 (which would have won them the match) The full story is here

Hmm...

Well, since I'm a college student this year, I wasn't down on the field that much. I can't tell you how they interfaced personally.

I will tell you that I LOVED the addition of on-the-field reffing immediately after the field.

But I swear to you that on Saturday I saw about 10 offsides going uncalled. It was just weird...I don't know. I'll leave that judgement to people who interfaced with refs personally this year. All I can say for sure is that I was not impressed with the length and breadth of the technical difficulties at the BAE GSR this year, whether it be the inability to display the rankings or the befuddling scoring system that seemed consistently off.

Ah well. First year for progressive scoring, I think, so there are some understandable bugs to work out.

--Petey

[meaubry]

Are others as surprised as I am with the number of robots that end up tipped over?
I can understand those that flip over when climbing on the ramp, but I've seen lots that were in the middle of the field.
In one match I saw 2 robots pushing each other straight on and both flipping over backwards as the result (didn't either of these think about driving backwards?)
I would have thought by limiting the area of allowable interaction, that the robots wouldn't have tipped over as easily. Guess not.
Yes, Yes, Yes, - Know all about those that are top heavy are gonna be easier to tip - but I didn't think it would be often as I was seeing.
(Even with the cg 2 1/2 feet from the ground, you only have a very short moment arm with the contact zone being so close to the ground (2 1/2 to 8)
Anyways - maybe its simply a by-product of the amount and type of defensive tactics be applied with this years game format.

[Travis Hoffman]

Observations based upon participation in New Jersey Regional:

1. 25 is extremely good, but they were made even better by the facts that

A.) It seemed no one ever once tried to prevent them from loading up on human player ammo all day - starve an HP loaded only launcher and it's as tame as a kitten. If you are on offense, I highly doubt all 3 robots will be in position to score points, so use one of them to hinder HP loader bots from refilling while they are on defense.

B.) Few seemed to grasp the idea that low shooter + getting between the shooter and the center goal with your robot = not many balls getting into the center goal. Some teams aimed to disrupt 25 by setting up in the near starting position and running into their SIDE during autonomous, but that does no good when the robot has an auto-adjusting camera controlled turret to correct any side to side perturbations. There were numerous teams at that event who could have beaten 25 (and other autonomous low shooters who move to a fixed position on the field) to their launch position, gotten in FRONT of them, and blocked every single shot. I would have enjoyed a chance at accomplishing this feat, but alas......

2. ......THE *RANDOM* MATCH LIST GENERATOR IS STILL A PILE OF JUNK. We didn't face or ally with 25 once (a desirable thing for any newcomer to the New Jersey Regional to do, you would think - a major disappointment for our team), yet some teams faced them 2 times. FIX THE PROBLEM!!!!!

3. FIRST better get their act straight SOON when it comes to the numerous field control and scoring glitches, or you are going to have a mass uprising on your hands. I returned home to Warren, OH at 3:25 AM after driving back from New Jersey. This late return was due in no small part to the HOURS of delays teams and spectators had to endure from the ridiculous amount of restarts and field downtimes. This is at least the 2nd year in a row these problems have been permitted to leak into the competition season, especially during the first few weeks, and it seems even worse this year. FIRST, HATCH TECHNOLOGIES, and whomever else is responsible for developing the field control systems - FIX THE PROBLEM, or find the number of registrants for 1st week regionals dwindle away and die. WE ARE NOT YOUR GUINEA PIGS!!!! My registration fees are not there for you to spend on people who develop buggy, regional experience and audience interest-degrading software and hardware. If you do not do more to improve your quality control and accelerate your testing and debug, you may find those fees absent from future seasons. I will gladly pay a lot less money to someone who isn't FIRST to attend more offseason events like the IRI where the probability of playing on fully debugged fields is 80000% greater. This is one area where I will be more gracious when FIRST starts being more professional. I can only imagine how these numerous problems could hurt teams who work their hardest to scrape together enough dough to attend a single Week 1 event.

4. This game has the potential to be quite fun. Offense will get better (much better, in our case) as the weeks go on as teams improve their shooters and start to understand the game better. Thankfully, defense is back with a vengeance, albeit perhaps too much so. I witnessed a lot of tough pushing and blocking - no free license to score for the offensive powers this year! You gotta earn it, and that's wonderful. Lots of high CG and/or short wheelbase robots are tipping over on the ramp or even through normal operation in the middle of the playing field, self inflicted or otherwise. I did see a fair amount of what I would define to be long distance ramming and penalizable (is that a word?) tipping that wasn't flagged. The 25 driving up on 293, 293 backing up to avoid tipping them (which I'm pretty sure they didn't legally have to do if they didn't want to - why should you have to limit your movements to protect a robot that mistakenly drove up on you and not the other way around?), 25 driving underneath 293 seconds later, and 25 continuing to drive forward until 293 fell over sequence in the elims raised a few eyebrows in my area of the stands when no flags were thrown. I didn't see it, but 48's robot also apparently got under 56 and accidentally tipped them in a qualifying match without penalty (we apologized to them following the match). With the tipping rules, I believe intent isn't a factor. It's black and white - if you initiate the act of having one robot's drivetrain be on top of another's and a tipped robot results, you must deal with the consequences. If you get under another bot and push them over, you receive the penalties. If you drive up on top of another robot and you end up on your butt as a result, tough cookies - don't do that next time!

5. Why in the world do so many HP's chuck balls up toward the corner goals like crazy during the 2nd and 3rd periods when they are on offense? Does anyone realize how few of those balls actually make it into the goals? All you are doing is giving opposing backbots with ball collectors more opportunities to load up and use those unrealized points against you. It also clutters the audience's view and makes it harder to see where robot shots are coming from. Save your balls in your ball corrals for human player robot loading or feeding directly to the backbot(s) during defense. And remember, balls in your ball corral are balls that can't ever be used by your opposition against you. In the 4th period, with a relatively uncluttered field and clear line of sight, that's when you start firing away at those corner goals. And make sure the balls are ROLLING, not bouncing, well before they reach the ramp.

6. Winning autonomous is absolutely critical to an alliance's overall chances of success during a match. I think the proof is in the pudding here. Most people have been saying this for months, and the early regional action is proving their predictions true.


Despite all the problems, the New Jersey Regional proved to be a fun, spirited albeit way too freaking long event filled with a bunch of great teams. Our team is very excited heading into Buckeye next week. I have heard, however, that the New Jersey field is scheduled to be shipped to Cleveland next. This makes me cringe (although I'm sure all the fields have been experiencing problems). I hope the problems plaguing the field control systems and causing stress for all the valiant volunteers responsible for keeping it limping along are minimized.