Go to Post After all, bitterness takes all the fun out of wiring. - Venkatesh [more]
Home
Go Back   Chief Delphi > FIRST > General Forum
CD-Media   CD-Spy  
portal register members calendar search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read FAQ rules

 
Reply
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #16   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 05-03-2006, 12:09
Kevin Ray's Avatar
Kevin Ray Kevin Ray is offline
Registered User
None #0329 (Raiders)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Rookie Year: 2000
Location: Medford, NY
Posts: 228
Kevin Ray is a splendid one to beholdKevin Ray is a splendid one to beholdKevin Ray is a splendid one to beholdKevin Ray is a splendid one to beholdKevin Ray is a splendid one to beholdKevin Ray is a splendid one to beholdKevin Ray is a splendid one to beholdKevin Ray is a splendid one to behold
Re: A statistical analysis of the "autonomous advantadge"

Joel J--- "If you win in autonomous, then you most likely have a good shooter, good software, good 1pt dumper, or a decent mixture. That is, if you are making it happen in autonomous, then you have what it takes to make it happen in the rest of the match."

That's it in a nut shell!!




BTW Joel, how's it up there in the North Country of Potsdam? I was the guy who, after the Long Island, correctly picked you guys to win the nats the year of your picture--a month in advance!
Reply With Quote
  #17   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 05-03-2006, 16:16
BobC's Avatar
BobC BobC is offline
Big Daddy
FRC #0176 (Aces High)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Rookie Year: 2000
Location: Windsor Locks, CT
Posts: 296
BobC is a name known to allBobC is a name known to allBobC is a name known to allBobC is a name known to allBobC is a name known to allBobC is a name known to all
Send a message via AIM to BobC
Re: A statistical analysis of the "autonomous advantadge"

A few questions if you won autonomous period what was your record?

What was record when you were RED?
Did you win by more than ten points? How many wins?
Did you win by ten points? How many wins?
Or did you win by less than ten points? How many wins?

What was record when you were BLUE?
Did you win by more than ten points? How many wins?
Did you win by ten points? How many wins?
Or did you win by less than ten points? How many wins?
__________________
FIRST Robotics is like NASCAR for Geeks.

1999 National Champions

Last edited by BobC : 05-03-2006 at 16:23.
Reply With Quote
  #18   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 05-03-2006, 17:16
Master Dictator's Avatar
Master Dictator Master Dictator is offline
Registered User
AKA: CJ Myers
FRC #0341
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Rookie Year: 2006
Location: Lansdale, PA
Posts: 47
Master Dictator is on a distinguished road
Re: A statistical analysis of the "autonomous advantadge"

Ok I saw team 25's robot at NJ and I must say do offence but it wasnt that spatacular design or that different from anyother robot but for 1 thing.... Autonomous. No other robot except for 375 could shoot like them. Every match in autonomous they got 9/10 or 10/10. Thats 30 points plus 10 to make 40-0 right from the getgo. After that is hard to make a comeback from that. Luckly our robot got 10/10 most of the time but in the low goal.
Reply With Quote
  #19   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 05-03-2006, 17:31
George A.'s Avatar
George A. George A. is offline
I come through in a spinsch
AKA: George- The Voice
FRC #0303 (TEST Team)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: May 2002
Rookie Year: 2001
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 1,000
George A. has a reputation beyond reputeGeorge A. has a reputation beyond reputeGeorge A. has a reputation beyond reputeGeorge A. has a reputation beyond reputeGeorge A. has a reputation beyond reputeGeorge A. has a reputation beyond reputeGeorge A. has a reputation beyond reputeGeorge A. has a reputation beyond reputeGeorge A. has a reputation beyond reputeGeorge A. has a reputation beyond reputeGeorge A. has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to George A.
Re: A statistical analysis of the "autonomous advantadge"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Master Dictator
Ok I saw team 25's robot at NJ and I must say do offence but it wasnt that spatacular design or that different from anyother robot but for 1 thing.... Autonomous. No other robot except for 375 could shoot like them. Every match in autonomous they got 9/10 or 10/10. Thats 30 points plus 10 to make 40-0 right from the getgo. After that is hard to make a comeback from that. Luckly our robot got 10/10 most of the time but in the low goal.
I'd have to argue with you about 25's robot. Yes their autonomous made them amazing, but also they were strong fast and even when they were pushed they could still shoot thanks to their auto-aiming camera. If you don't believe me I'm sure there is video somewhere when in the finals they were almost at the wall and still made an inordinate number of shots.
__________________
My Volunteer Resumé
Game Announcer NJ: 2005-Present
Game Announcer Philly: 2006-Present
Game Announcer NY: 2005-2008
Game Announcer Champsionships: 2005-2008


Reply With Quote
  #20   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 05-03-2006, 17:34
Tom Bottiglieri Tom Bottiglieri is offline
Registered User
FRC #0254 (The Cheesy Poofs)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Rookie Year: 2003
Location: San Francisco, CA
Posts: 3,189
Tom Bottiglieri has a reputation beyond reputeTom Bottiglieri has a reputation beyond reputeTom Bottiglieri has a reputation beyond reputeTom Bottiglieri has a reputation beyond reputeTom Bottiglieri has a reputation beyond reputeTom Bottiglieri has a reputation beyond reputeTom Bottiglieri has a reputation beyond reputeTom Bottiglieri has a reputation beyond reputeTom Bottiglieri has a reputation beyond reputeTom Bottiglieri has a reputation beyond reputeTom Bottiglieri has a reputation beyond repute
Re: A statistical analysis of the "autonomous advantadge"

Quote:
Originally Posted by M.O.R.T.
I'd have to argue with you about 25's robot. Yes their autonomous made them amazing, but also they were strong fast and even when they were pushed they could still shoot thanks to their auto-aiming camera. If you don't believe me I'm sure there is video somewhere when in the finals they were almost at the wall and still made an inordinate number of shots.
I am not going to argue 25 looked great, if not amazing.

But, will they be able to live up to the hype against teams from other (possibly more competitive) regionals than NJ?

I guess we will see.

Reply With Quote
  #21   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 05-03-2006, 17:49
Bill Moore's Avatar
Bill Moore Bill Moore is offline
Iv2gr8sons
AKA: Be More
FRC #0365 (Miracle Workerz)
Team Role: Team Spirit / Cheering
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Rookie Year: 2001
Location: Wilmington, DE
Posts: 461
Bill Moore has a reputation beyond reputeBill Moore has a reputation beyond reputeBill Moore has a reputation beyond reputeBill Moore has a reputation beyond reputeBill Moore has a reputation beyond reputeBill Moore has a reputation beyond reputeBill Moore has a reputation beyond reputeBill Moore has a reputation beyond reputeBill Moore has a reputation beyond reputeBill Moore has a reputation beyond reputeBill Moore has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Bill Moore
Re: A statistical analysis of the "autonomous advantadge"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery
No, it definately was tied into autonomous mode. The most "Aggressive" shooter at VCU was easily 435, who could unload 5 balls a second and would try to do it 3 or 4 times a match. People quickly caught on and started putting 1 and even 2 defensive bots on them. Because of this, 435 lost 3 matches during qualification, and would lose in the finals (and some, not I, argue should have lost in the semi-finals, because of a semi-controversial DQ). Even when paired with another high caliber shooter, 384, defensive maneuvering and high precision scoring when left open allowed for teh 384, 435, 1522 alliance to be toppled.
Sean,

Could the 10 bonus points for autonomous be too much of an advantage?
__________________
Three Signs You Are Getting Old: 1) You forget things, 2) You begin repeating yourself, 3) You forget things.
Reply With Quote
  #22   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 05-03-2006, 18:49
Faith's Avatar
Faith Faith is offline
Registered User
AKA: Plooshiska
FRC #1100 (The T'Hawks)
Team Role: Scout
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Rookie Year: 2006
Location: Algonquin
Posts: 110
Faith will become famous soon enoughFaith will become famous soon enough
Re: A statistical analysis of the "autonomous advantadge"

Quote:
Originally Posted by BobC
A few questions if you won autonomous period what was your record?

What was record when you were RED?
Did you win by more than ten points? How many wins?
Did you win by ten points? How many wins?
Or did you win by less than ten points? How many wins?

What was record when you were BLUE?
Did you win by more than ten points? How many wins?
Did you win by ten points? How many wins?
Or did you win by less than ten points? How many wins?
You may want to say 20, because although the points are equal to 10, if you switch the those points to the other alliance it adds 10 to them AND subtracts 10 from you, which is a 20 point difference.
__________________
FRC: TEAM 1100
FVC: Team 3377
Reply With Quote
  #23   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 05-03-2006, 19:17
KenWittlief KenWittlief is offline
.
no team
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Rochester, NY
Posts: 4,213
KenWittlief has a reputation beyond reputeKenWittlief has a reputation beyond reputeKenWittlief has a reputation beyond reputeKenWittlief has a reputation beyond reputeKenWittlief has a reputation beyond reputeKenWittlief has a reputation beyond reputeKenWittlief has a reputation beyond reputeKenWittlief has a reputation beyond reputeKenWittlief has a reputation beyond reputeKenWittlief has a reputation beyond reputeKenWittlief has a reputation beyond repute
Re: A statistical analysis of the "autonomous advantadge"

I dont see an automatic clincher if your side gets the high score in auton mode.

If you know your bot cant score well in auton mode you can set it to get into field position and score immediately after. Your opponent, if they have fired all their shots off cannot reload and play defense at the same time. In fact, if you have fired nothing into their goals they have nothing to reload their robot with!

You on the other hand, can fire your shots into the goal, retreat to your side, reload and play defense while your opponents are busy getting the balls you just fired to reload their bot.

Nothing is cut & dry about this game.

Last edited by KenWittlief : 05-03-2006 at 20:32.
Reply With Quote
  #24   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 05-03-2006, 19:43
petek's Avatar
petek petek is offline
What would Dave do?
AKA: Peter Kieselbach
FRC #3654 (Tech Tigers)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: May 2002
Rookie Year: 2002
Location: Middletown, CT
Posts: 923
petek has a reputation beyond reputepetek has a reputation beyond reputepetek has a reputation beyond reputepetek has a reputation beyond reputepetek has a reputation beyond reputepetek has a reputation beyond reputepetek has a reputation beyond reputepetek has a reputation beyond reputepetek has a reputation beyond reputepetek has a reputation beyond reputepetek has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to petek
Re: A statistical analysis of the "autonomous advantadge"

I'll be interested to see what these stats reveal. If being on defense for the first period is a big advantage, will they show that when no one won autonomous the randomly picked alliance has the advantage, too?

If the finals in NJ are anything to go by, it would appear that besides the 10 points for winning the period, there is a real advantage to the autonomous winner. The 25/103/1279 alliance scored an average of 96.5 points in their elimination rounds, but in F1 they lost autonomous and just barely won the round 78:71.

Looking over my notes, I believe that the autonomous winning alliance won 11 out of 16 matches in the eliminations.

One of the things which really impressed me about the game play in NJ on Saturday was how teams adapted their autonomous defense to counter teams like 25 and 375. It was interesting to see the defensive robot driving into a blocking position in front of the goal rather than trying to ram their opponent.
__________________
Pete Kieselbach
#4

Reply With Quote
  #25   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 05-03-2006, 19:56
Joel J's Avatar
Joel J Joel J is offline
do you..
no team
 
Join Date: May 2001
Rookie Year: 2000
Location: San Jose, CA
Posts: 1,445
Joel J has a reputation beyond reputeJoel J has a reputation beyond reputeJoel J has a reputation beyond reputeJoel J has a reputation beyond reputeJoel J has a reputation beyond reputeJoel J has a reputation beyond reputeJoel J has a reputation beyond reputeJoel J has a reputation beyond reputeJoel J has a reputation beyond reputeJoel J has a reputation beyond reputeJoel J has a reputation beyond repute
Re: A statistical analysis of the "autonomous advantadge"

Quote:
Originally Posted by KenWittlief
I dont see an automatic clincher if your side gets the high score in auton mode?

If you know your bot cant score well in auton mode you can set it to get into field position and score immediately after. Your opponent, if they have fired all their shots off cannot reload and play defense at the same time. In fact, if you have fired nothing into their goals they have nothing to reload their robot with!

You one the other hand, can fire your shots into the goal, retreat to your side, reload and play defense while your opponents are busy getting the balls you just fired to reload their bot.

Nothing is cut & dry about this game.
huh?

There isn't an automatic clincher, from the looks of it, but it is almost clear that recovering from an autonomous loss is not easy.

The stats will probably confirm that defense first is advantageous (from those matches when the score was 0-0 after autonomous). We shall see.

The human players have ten additional balls to play with, if they load the other 30 into each robot.

If the robots fired ALL there balls into the goals to win autonomous, then that's 100 points.. which is a HUGE defecit for the loser to overcome. If the winner of autonomous missed some, then they are on the floor waiting to be picked up.

If the winner of autonomous is playing defense against the losers, and the losers save their balls, and don't score, because they don't have a good shot, then the winner has zero reason to go and load up. If the winner of auton plays defense and the losers fire (and misses because of defense) all their balls, then they HAVE to go and reload, otherwise they have nothing to score. When they are on their side reloading, the autonomous winner is doing the same.

Ok, ok.. I'll stop and wait for the stats as well, but I see a correlation.
__________________
Joel Johnson

Division By Zero (229) Alumni, 2003-2007
RAGE (173) Alumni, 1999-2003
Reply With Quote
  #26   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 05-03-2006, 19:58
Joel J's Avatar
Joel J Joel J is offline
do you..
no team
 
Join Date: May 2001
Rookie Year: 2000
Location: San Jose, CA
Posts: 1,445
Joel J has a reputation beyond reputeJoel J has a reputation beyond reputeJoel J has a reputation beyond reputeJoel J has a reputation beyond reputeJoel J has a reputation beyond reputeJoel J has a reputation beyond reputeJoel J has a reputation beyond reputeJoel J has a reputation beyond reputeJoel J has a reputation beyond reputeJoel J has a reputation beyond reputeJoel J has a reputation beyond repute
Re: A statistical analysis of the "autonomous advantadge"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Ray
Joel J--- "If you win in autonomous, then you most likely have a good shooter, good software, good 1pt dumper, or a decent mixture. That is, if you are making it happen in autonomous, then you have what it takes to make it happen in the rest of the match."

That's it in a nut shell!!




BTW Joel, how's it up there in the North Country of Potsdam? I was the guy who, after the Long Island, correctly picked you guys to win the nats the year of your picture--a month in advance!
Hi, yes I remember you. Potsdam is awesome.. lovely weather .
__________________
Joel Johnson

Division By Zero (229) Alumni, 2003-2007
RAGE (173) Alumni, 1999-2003
Reply With Quote
  #27   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 05-03-2006, 20:50
KenWittlief KenWittlief is offline
.
no team
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Rochester, NY
Posts: 4,213
KenWittlief has a reputation beyond reputeKenWittlief has a reputation beyond reputeKenWittlief has a reputation beyond reputeKenWittlief has a reputation beyond reputeKenWittlief has a reputation beyond reputeKenWittlief has a reputation beyond reputeKenWittlief has a reputation beyond reputeKenWittlief has a reputation beyond reputeKenWittlief has a reputation beyond reputeKenWittlief has a reputation beyond reputeKenWittlief has a reputation beyond repute
Re: A statistical analysis of the "autonomous advantadge"

If an alliance can fire 30 balls into the center goal in the ten seconds of auton mode, and your side cannot score well in auton mode, then yes, the game is pretty much over

but thats the extreem - Im referring to more evenly matched games, where both sides have a chance of winning.

If your bot cannot fire into the goals reliably in auton mode then you might be better off not firing at all. In fact if you are sure your side will loose auton mode you might be better off if none of your bots fire.

Because:

1. your bots can get into scoring position during auton, knowing you will be on the offense

2. if your opponents fired 30 balls they only have ten left in their corrals, so they cannot reload all three robots, Plus they have to keep a backbot on the opposite side, so they only have two bots on their side at a time to play defense AND to be reloaded

3. Your team has 30 balls in their robots, and 40 seconds to score (instead of just 10), so you have a better chance of making your shots count. As each one fires off its shots it can go back to your side to be reloaded AND to get ready to play defense.

the point is, if your bots cannot shoot well in auton mode you might be better off using that time to get field position for your 40 S of offensive play, and you could very well come out better in the end.
Reply With Quote
  #28   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 05-03-2006, 21:06
irishninja's Avatar
irishninja irishninja is offline
I count as two people!
AKA: Nathan Bixler
FRC #0694 (Stuypulse)
Team Role: Marketing
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Rookie Year: 2004
Location: New York
Posts: 267
irishninja is a glorious beacon of lightirishninja is a glorious beacon of lightirishninja is a glorious beacon of lightirishninja is a glorious beacon of lightirishninja is a glorious beacon of light
Send a message via AIM to irishninja
Re: A statistical analysis of the "autonomous advantadge"

Don't know what caused it but it happened at Trenton too. There was one match in which McKee's alliance was able to recover from losing autonomous.
__________________


VEX Robotics Blog
Reply With Quote
  #29   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 05-03-2006, 21:42
Joel J's Avatar
Joel J Joel J is offline
do you..
no team
 
Join Date: May 2001
Rookie Year: 2000
Location: San Jose, CA
Posts: 1,445
Joel J has a reputation beyond reputeJoel J has a reputation beyond reputeJoel J has a reputation beyond reputeJoel J has a reputation beyond reputeJoel J has a reputation beyond reputeJoel J has a reputation beyond reputeJoel J has a reputation beyond reputeJoel J has a reputation beyond reputeJoel J has a reputation beyond reputeJoel J has a reputation beyond reputeJoel J has a reputation beyond repute
Re: A statistical analysis of the "autonomous advantadge"

Quote:
Originally Posted by KenWittlief
If an alliance can fire 30 balls into the center goal in the ten seconds of auton mode, and your side cannot score well in auton mode, then yes, the game is pretty much over

but thats the extreem - Im referring to more evenly matched games, where both sides have a chance of winning.

If your bot cannot fire into the goals reliably in auton mode then you might be better off not firing at all. In fact if you are sure your side will loose auton mode you might be better off if none of your bots fire.

Because:

1. your bots can get into scoring position during auton, knowing you will be on the offense

2. if your opponents fired 30 balls they only have ten left in their corrals, so they cannot reload all three robots, Plus they have to keep a backbot on the opposite side, so they only have two bots on their side at a time to play defense AND to be reloaded

3. Your team has 30 balls in their robots, and 40 seconds to score (instead of just 10), so you have a better chance of making your shots count. As each one fires off its shots it can go back to your side to be reloaded AND to get ready to play defense.

the point is, if your bots cannot shoot well in auton mode you might be better off using that time to get field position for your 40 S of offensive play, and you could very well come out better in the end.
Maybe you missed the point of what I was saying?
__________________
Joel Johnson

Division By Zero (229) Alumni, 2003-2007
RAGE (173) Alumni, 1999-2003
Reply With Quote
  #30   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 05-03-2006, 22:02
Unsung FIRST Hero
Greg Marra Greg Marra is offline
[automate(a) for a in tasks_to_do]
FRC #5507 (Robotic Eagles)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Rookie Year: 2005
Location: San Francisco, CA
Posts: 2,031
Greg Marra has a reputation beyond reputeGreg Marra has a reputation beyond reputeGreg Marra has a reputation beyond reputeGreg Marra has a reputation beyond reputeGreg Marra has a reputation beyond reputeGreg Marra has a reputation beyond reputeGreg Marra has a reputation beyond reputeGreg Marra has a reputation beyond reputeGreg Marra has a reputation beyond reputeGreg Marra has a reputation beyond reputeGreg Marra has a reputation beyond repute
Re: A statistical analysis of the "autonomous advantadge"

I have created sheets so that anyone attending a Regional can help collect data. Simply watch the match, and write down the information the sheet asks for. Don't feel obligated to do every single match. If you are only able to do a handful, it is better than nothing. I just ask that you don't record practice matches, since they are often played very differently than real matches.

Here is a nice printable version of the sheet. There are twenty rows per sheet, so you will probably need about 4 or 5 to completely cover a regional. If you really want a .xls version, PM me and I'll send it to you.

Once you have filled out a sheet either scan it, take a digital photo of it, or type it back into a spreadsheet. Then e-mail it to: aim.high.autonomous [at] gmail [dot] com. I'll take everyone's data, compile it, make it available, and then run some statistics on it.

It should be interesting to see what we find out!
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
STAMP (Statistical Team Analysis of Match Performance) is off and running! Ethulin Scouting 6 04-02-2006 23:12
Statistical Analysis of Regional Competion Scores rourke Regional Competitions 9 08-04-2004 01:05


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 13:25.

The Chief Delphi Forums are sponsored by Innovation First International, Inc.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © Chief Delphi