Picking Teams in Elimination Rounds

[FlipperGiggles]

I see where the rest of you are coming from, but I actually think that this system was more fair because the highest seeds got to pick the best robots first, and then the last seeds got to pick the other good robots. This leveled the playing field greatly because the high seeds still had much advantage because they got the best robots, but the lower seeds still had a chance.

[Joe Johnson]

It is very hard to do picking well. The pressure is very high and the timeframe is always tough and sometimes insane (we've had to pick when we didn't think we even had a chance to pick until the very last match of Sat. morning).

I have argued both sides of this one:

On one hand, I have told teams over and over that as a picking team they should try to do their best to pick the best partner available. That they sort of owe it to the good teams down the ranks to find them.

On the other, I have also told teams that there is no right to be picked. I know of teams that were picked because of reasons that are too silly to relate in public. But, that is the right of the team that is doing the picking. It is even their right to be unprepared or to flip a coin. The pick is theirs to do with as they like.

Here is where I come down: When I am picking team I advocate the first hand -- the entire season of another 2 teams is in your hands. When I am a pickee, I advocate the second hand.

Life is unfair. Learn to deal with it or be unhappy.

Joe J.

[Wayne C.]

I like the new picking method. It makes the game a lot more exciting and forces the teams to really get to know their fellow competitors.

Today our scouts certainly learned how important they are. It is sometimes easy to pick the top 10 teams. But picking the top 20....? !!

Anything that gets more of the team involved and contributing is a good change.

WC

[Lil' Lavery]

The state of preparation of the low seeds, being rather bad as it seemed at VCU, is a completely sepearate issue fromt he new ranking system.
As much as I don't like the new system, I will admit it acheived what it was set out to, at least at VCU. It was meant to bring more competitive matchplay and a greater chance for the lower seeds to advance and win. The #2 and #3 alliances fell in the QFs, and the the #6 beat the #4 seed in the finals, it did what it was meant to do.

[Joe_Widen]

I love that FIRST changed the selection system. It makes for a more dynamic and fun game, especially the elimination rounds. Who wants to see your robot get their butt handed to them? Well anyways i think that FIRST made a good call. O yeh it gives everyone a chance, not just Hammond Wildstang HOT Bot and Cheesy Poofs.

[Ian Curtis]

At BAE it was the 5th seed versus the 7th: in the finals, with the 5th coming away with the win. At BAE I was rather amused when 1276 got picked after we had already picked an alliance partner. Also, at BAE the 9th and 10th seeds picked, so be sure to have a list if you are in the top 12. Without one, you'll never amount to any sort of alliance. And put make sure you have a strategy when you make your list. We knew we wanted robots capable of certain things, and we picked robots capable of achieving those ends.

As I'm sure Grady, JVN, Karthik, Brian Beatty and other strategy greats of our FIRST world can tell you, SCOUTING IS IMPORTANT!

[mrmummert]

hello folks...at vcu it did help us i guess...which as it worked out evened out what happened to us. we were supposed to be ranked 7-1-0 and were ranked 6-2-0...a scoring mistake...but nothing we could do anything about unless we raised a lot of mess about it...so we took the mistake...
We ended up ranked 7th..then 6th after the alliance selection started.

This is where it helped us. Last year at Atlanta..we were ranked 19th in our division...so we thought we would have been picked for an alliance...but ened up being alternates and never played....no telling what might have happened if the alliance changes would have done for us if we had this last year...

[The Lucas]

One thing that stood out to me at NJ was:

No teams picked among the top 8 seeds!

This totally surprised me as this was very common last year. It seemed to me that it would have been advantageous for some of the top 8 to pick each other.

At first I thought that the new serpentine draft style prohibited it, but after rereading my rule book I knew that this wasn't the case. So why didn't they the top 8 select each other? Not that I am complaining about the results, because all the alliances were great (I don’t think there was a single bad pick). I am just curious.

As for the Serpentine Draft, there were not as many upsets as I predicted last year . I only counted one upset (#6: 223 522 75 over #3: 56 303 528) and that was really close (3 matches). Of course that is only one regional and no one was going to beat 25, they were just that good .

I am wondering how this will impact Pittsburgh, which has just 25 teams. The #1 alliance is going to have 2 robots to choose between 2nd pick. The choice may become easier if one of the robots is broken.

[akshar]

Originally Posted by The Lucas

I am wondering how this will impact Pittsburgh, which has just 25 teams. The #1 alliance is going to have 2 robots to choose between 2nd pick. The choice may become easier if one of the robots is broken.

imagine if more than two robots are broken, the first alliance would get stuck with a broken robot on their alliance, and since Alliance Seed 8 is against Seed 1 in the begining of elimination the top team will be at a huge disadvantage

[Wetzel]

Originally Posted by mrmummert

hello folks...at vcu it did help us i guess...which as it worked out evened out what happened to us. we were supposed to be ranked 7-1-0 and were ranked 6-2-0...a scoring mistake...but nothing we could do anything about unless we raised a lot of mess about it...so we took the mistake...
We ended up ranked 7th..then 6th after the alliance selection started.

I guess you didn't hear back. 1610 brought this to our attention later then they should have. We went back and quickly checked all their matches and found their alliances were 7-1-0, but in one of the wins they had been DQed, for a 6-2-0 record.


Wetzel

[Koko Ed]

Originally Posted by The Lucas

One thing that stood out to me at NJ was:

No teams picked among the top 8 seeds!

This totally surprised me as this was very common last year. It seemed to me that it would have been advantageous for some of the top 8 to pick each other.

At first I thought that the new serpentine draft style prohibited it, but after rereading my rule book I knew that this wasn't the case. So why didn't they the top 8 select each other? Not that I am complaining about the results, because all the alliances were great (I don’t think there was a single bad pick). I am just curious.

As for the Serpentine Draft, there were not as many upsets as I predicted last year . I only counted one upset (#6: 223 522 75 over #3: 56 303 528) and that was really close (3 matches). Of course that is only one regional and no one was going to beat 25, they were just that good .

I am wondering how this will impact Pittsburgh, which has just 25 teams. The #1 alliance is going to have 2 robots to choose between 2nd pick. The choice may become easier if one of the robots is broken.

Exactly.
At smaller regionals the number 1 seed will be forced to work with a possibly "weak sister" and may be in a position to work twice as hard just to survive.
This was a huge swing and a miss on FIRST's behalf.

[Michael Corsetto]

Just a couple of things that went on during the alliance selection at the PNW Regional. The first surprising thing that happened was the Cheesy Poofs graciously declining the #2 alliances invitation to join them and instead picked there own alliance partners (which was a good choice, considering they won the regional). The other thing that was pretty cool was the #8 alliance (our alliance) made it all the way to the finals without loosing a match (there was one tie) before loosing 2 games to 1 to the Poofs.

I think the reverse picking order definetly helps even out the teams and gives everyone a shot at the championship.

Mike C.

[StephLee]

This is definitely an interesting twist to the game this year, and I can't wait to see how it plays out next weekend. Last year, we didn't think we'd get picked at all at Chesapeake; we were doing well, and then our last QF match brought us down about 20 spots to number 29. We wound up on the 7th ranked alliance; we were ecstatic. I've been thinking about how that would have been different if they had done this last year.

[Ken Streeter]

Originally Posted by iCurtis

... make sure you have a strategy when you make your list. We knew we wanted robots capable of certain things, and we picked robots capable of achieving those ends.

The above comment was absolutely true at yesterday's BAE GSR -- the real strength of the 1276 alliance was not that any one robot on the alliance was way above the rest of the field, but that the three allied teams (1276, 133, and 1519) had complementary abilities. From the very first quarterfinal match in which we played, it was evident that 1276 did a great job choosing the eventual winning alliance. We were thankful to be part of it, and were glad to be teamed with 1276 and 133, each of which we had been teamed with at tournaments in "Triple Play."

[soap108]

Originally Posted by mrmummert

hello folks...at vcu it did help us i guess...which as it worked out evened out what happened to us. we were supposed to be ranked 7-1-0 and were ranked 6-2-0...a scoring mistake...but nothing we could do anything about unless we raised a lot of mess about it...so we took the mistake...
We ended up ranked 7th..then 6th after the alliance selection started.

I wondered about that too and reviewed the tape as it was throwing off our ranking calculation.

It seems your team received a DQ in match 75 for going into the 1pt zone, which I would deem un-fair. What I saw was your robot being pushed into the goal by the blue robot (540). See 1:55 into this video clip.
http://www.soap.circuitrunners.com/2...nia/va_075.wmv

...unless your robot went into the score zone at some other point in the match, you have a right to be upset.

It's actually better to be ~ 5th seed anyway this year as that gold medal you have proves!

KA-108