Go to Post the programmers are -- um, well, doing what programmers do: drinking more Mt Dew. - Roger [more]
Home
Go Back   Chief Delphi > Competition > Rules/Strategy
CD-Media   CD-Spy  
portal register members calendar search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read FAQ rules

 
Closed Thread
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 05-03-2006, 19:20
Ethulin Ethulin is offline
Too many hats to count
AKA: Erik Thulin
FRC #0492 (Titan Robotics)
Team Role: Leadership
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Rookie Year: 2003
Location: Seattle
Posts: 245
Ethulin has much to be proud ofEthulin has much to be proud ofEthulin has much to be proud ofEthulin has much to be proud ofEthulin has much to be proud ofEthulin has much to be proud ofEthulin has much to be proud ofEthulin has much to be proud of
Send a message via AIM to Ethulin
Rules that are [not] getting called at Regionals, the +s and -s

So, after just attending the PAC NW regional I would like to talk about what rules people are not seeing getting called, as well as rules you are seeing getting called and that you are impressed with.

This should not become a "flame the referees" thread. It should also not become a "we lost match #XX because of this crap call". It should be "I noticed that rule XX is routinely not being enforced in these situations".

If this thread turns out right it will not only be a useful thread to upcoming teams with regionals but maybe just maybe to the FIRST organization themselves.

Please also put what regional you noticed these things at.

So now I can step off the soap box and talk about the things I noticed.

The good:
PACNW: offsides is being called well

The bad:
PACNW: The remaining balls after the robots are loaded are not in corrals at beginning of match, they are in plastic bins behind player stations
PACNW: In the above situation the remaining balls are not evenly distributed, for example the HPs could have 8 in one bin and 2 in the other
PACNW: Some human players would step out of the alliance zone to throw and were not assessed any penalty
PACNW: 3in intrusion was given a 5pt penalty not a DQ as called for in G21

Observed (not sure good or bad):
Low amount of pining calls
Almost all bot interaction (ramming) was deemed acceptable
__________________
2003 Pacific Northwest Regional Website Award || 2003 Pacific Northwest Regional Finalist || 2003 Pacific Northwest Regional Engineering Inspiration Award || 2004 Pacific Northwest Website Award || 2004 Pacific Northwest Regional Champions (#1 seed) || 2004 Galileo Semi-Finalist || 2005 Pacific Northwest Regional General Motors Industiral Design Award || 2005 Pacific Northwest Regional Champions (#1 seed) || 2005 Galileo Finalist || 2006 Pacific Northwest Regional Chairman's
Stamp Scouting || Titan Robotics

Last edited by Ethulin : 05-03-2006 at 19:31.
  #2   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 05-03-2006, 19:25
Cory's Avatar
Cory Cory is offline
Registered User
AKA: Cory McBride
FRC #0254 (The Cheesy Poofs)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: May 2002
Rookie Year: 2001
Location: Redwood City, CA
Posts: 6,812
Cory has a reputation beyond reputeCory has a reputation beyond reputeCory has a reputation beyond reputeCory has a reputation beyond reputeCory has a reputation beyond reputeCory has a reputation beyond reputeCory has a reputation beyond reputeCory has a reputation beyond reputeCory has a reputation beyond reputeCory has a reputation beyond reputeCory has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Cory
Re: Rules that are [not] getting called at Regionals, the +s and -s

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ethulin
The good:
PACNW: 3in Intrusion is being called well
The 3 inch intrusion was actually called completely wrong, in the instances I witnessed.

I saw teams getting 5 point penalties, and not DQ's like <G21> calls for.
__________________
2001-2004: Team 100
2006-Present: Team 254
  #3   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 05-03-2006, 19:29
Koko Ed's Avatar
Koko Ed Koko Ed is offline
Serial Volunteer
AKA: Ed Patterson
FRC #0191 (X-Cats)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Rookie Year: 2002
Location: Rochester,NY
Posts: 22,941
Koko Ed has a reputation beyond reputeKoko Ed has a reputation beyond reputeKoko Ed has a reputation beyond reputeKoko Ed has a reputation beyond reputeKoko Ed has a reputation beyond reputeKoko Ed has a reputation beyond reputeKoko Ed has a reputation beyond reputeKoko Ed has a reputation beyond reputeKoko Ed has a reputation beyond reputeKoko Ed has a reputation beyond reputeKoko Ed has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Rules that are [not] getting called at Regionals, the +s and -s

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ethulin

This should not become a "flame the referees" thread. It should also not become a "we lost match #XX because of this crap call". It should be "I noticed that rule XX is routinely not being enforced in these situations".

If this thread turns out right it will not only be a useful thread to upcoming teams with regionals but maybe just maybe to the FIRST organization themselves.
Well you may not want it to become that but there's a pretty good chance it will, so I would recommend having it moderated so it doesn't become that kind of thread.
The refs are only human and human volunteers at that. I don't want them feeling persecuted and then we have a shortage at competitions because they are tired of being bashed by everyone.
__________________
  #4   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 05-03-2006, 19:29
Ethulin Ethulin is offline
Too many hats to count
AKA: Erik Thulin
FRC #0492 (Titan Robotics)
Team Role: Leadership
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Rookie Year: 2003
Location: Seattle
Posts: 245
Ethulin has much to be proud ofEthulin has much to be proud ofEthulin has much to be proud ofEthulin has much to be proud ofEthulin has much to be proud ofEthulin has much to be proud ofEthulin has much to be proud ofEthulin has much to be proud of
Send a message via AIM to Ethulin
Re: Rules that are [not] getting called at Regionals, the +s and -s

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cory
The 3 inch intrusion was actually called completely wrong, in the instances I witnessed.

I saw teams getting 5 point penalties, and not DQ's like <G21> calls for.
After re-reading G21 you are %100 correct. I am changing my post above. When you saw it called incorrectlf Cory was it that they went 3in in and were NOT called or that they were called when they did not go 3in in?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Koko Ed
Well you may not want it to become that but there's a pretty good chance it will, so I would recommend having it moderated so it doesn't become that kind of thread.
The refs are only human and human volunteers at that. I don't want them feeling persecuted and then we have a shortage at competitions because they are tired of being bashed by everyone.
I agree. I think however, that this thread should remain upon untill such time as some one DOES harp on a specific referee, a specific call etc. Lets see if CD can remain mature and GP on their own. If we can't I think it should become moderated.
__________________
2003 Pacific Northwest Regional Website Award || 2003 Pacific Northwest Regional Finalist || 2003 Pacific Northwest Regional Engineering Inspiration Award || 2004 Pacific Northwest Website Award || 2004 Pacific Northwest Regional Champions (#1 seed) || 2004 Galileo Semi-Finalist || 2005 Pacific Northwest Regional General Motors Industiral Design Award || 2005 Pacific Northwest Regional Champions (#1 seed) || 2005 Galileo Finalist || 2006 Pacific Northwest Regional Chairman's
Stamp Scouting || Titan Robotics

Last edited by Ethulin : 05-03-2006 at 19:32.
  #5   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 05-03-2006, 19:32
Cory's Avatar
Cory Cory is offline
Registered User
AKA: Cory McBride
FRC #0254 (The Cheesy Poofs)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: May 2002
Rookie Year: 2001
Location: Redwood City, CA
Posts: 6,812
Cory has a reputation beyond reputeCory has a reputation beyond reputeCory has a reputation beyond reputeCory has a reputation beyond reputeCory has a reputation beyond reputeCory has a reputation beyond reputeCory has a reputation beyond reputeCory has a reputation beyond reputeCory has a reputation beyond reputeCory has a reputation beyond reputeCory has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Cory
Re: Rules that are [not] getting called at Regionals, the +s and -s

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ethulin
After re-reading G21 you are %100 correct. I am changing my post above. When you saw it called incorrectlf Cory was it that they went 3in in and were NOT called or that they were called when they did not go 3in in?
The head ref would state that they had gone into the goal more than 3", and as such were receiving a 5 pt penalty.

I didn't get to see many matches other than my own team's, and the matches immediately prior/after my own, but I saw this happen at least 2-3 times. Whether or not it was called this way all weekend, I can't say.
__________________
2001-2004: Team 100
2006-Present: Team 254
  #6   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 05-03-2006, 19:33
Ethulin Ethulin is offline
Too many hats to count
AKA: Erik Thulin
FRC #0492 (Titan Robotics)
Team Role: Leadership
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Rookie Year: 2003
Location: Seattle
Posts: 245
Ethulin has much to be proud ofEthulin has much to be proud ofEthulin has much to be proud ofEthulin has much to be proud ofEthulin has much to be proud ofEthulin has much to be proud ofEthulin has much to be proud ofEthulin has much to be proud of
Send a message via AIM to Ethulin
Re: Rules that are [not] getting called at Regionals, the +s and -s

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cory
The head ref would state that they had gone into the goal more than 3", and as such were receiving a 5 pt penalty.

I didn't get to see many matches other than my own team's, and the matches immediately prior/after my own, but I saw this happen at least 2-3 times. Whether or not it was called this way all weekend, I can't say.
Ok, I get what you are saying. I thought you meant that not only were they getting the penalty wrong the call was wrong as well. But now I understand. And yes, it was called like this all weekend.
__________________
2003 Pacific Northwest Regional Website Award || 2003 Pacific Northwest Regional Finalist || 2003 Pacific Northwest Regional Engineering Inspiration Award || 2004 Pacific Northwest Website Award || 2004 Pacific Northwest Regional Champions (#1 seed) || 2004 Galileo Semi-Finalist || 2005 Pacific Northwest Regional General Motors Industiral Design Award || 2005 Pacific Northwest Regional Champions (#1 seed) || 2005 Galileo Finalist || 2006 Pacific Northwest Regional Chairman's
Stamp Scouting || Titan Robotics
  #7   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 05-03-2006, 20:04
Jeff Rodriguez Jeff Rodriguez is offline
Too young to be an 'old guy'
FRC #0155 (Technonuts)
Team Role: Teacher
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Rookie Year: 1999
Location: Newington, CT
Posts: 1,943
Jeff Rodriguez has a reputation beyond reputeJeff Rodriguez has a reputation beyond reputeJeff Rodriguez has a reputation beyond reputeJeff Rodriguez has a reputation beyond reputeJeff Rodriguez has a reputation beyond reputeJeff Rodriguez has a reputation beyond reputeJeff Rodriguez has a reputation beyond reputeJeff Rodriguez has a reputation beyond reputeJeff Rodriguez has a reputation beyond reputeJeff Rodriguez has a reputation beyond reputeJeff Rodriguez has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Jeff Rodriguez Send a message via Yahoo to Jeff Rodriguez
Re: Rules that are [not] getting called at Regionals, the +s and -s

At BAE, the refs were calling G21 correctly. In fact, the refs at BAE did a great job. There weren't any controversial calls that I can remember.
Everything was being called accurately. Granted, I wasn't watching Human players, I was watching robots.
__________________
173, student: 1999-2002
173, mentor: 2005-2010
155, teacher: 2011-
  #8   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 05-03-2006, 20:31
Madison's Avatar
Madison Madison is offline
Dancing through life...
FRC #0488 (Xbot)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Rookie Year: 1999
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 5,243
Madison has a reputation beyond reputeMadison has a reputation beyond reputeMadison has a reputation beyond reputeMadison has a reputation beyond reputeMadison has a reputation beyond reputeMadison has a reputation beyond reputeMadison has a reputation beyond reputeMadison has a reputation beyond reputeMadison has a reputation beyond reputeMadison has a reputation beyond reputeMadison has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Rules that are [not] getting called at Regionals, the +s and -s

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ethulin

The good:
PACNW: offsides is being called well
Rule G26 states that a 5-pt. penalty is to be assessed for every 5 seconds that a robot remains off sides. Off sides penalties were not ever assessed as such to my knowledge. We made the referrees aware of how that rule reads midday on Friday and they acknowledged that they were in error, but never corrected that error procedurally -- presumably to maintain continuity and fairness to all teams.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Koko Ed
Well you may not want it to become that but there's a pretty good chance it will, so I would recommend having it moderated so it doesn't become that kind of thread.
We'll take care of things if it comes to that. Let's give people the benefit of the doubt, please.
__________________
--Madison--

...down at the Ozdust!

Like a grand and miraculous spaceship, our planet has sailed through the universe of time. And for a brief moment, we have been among its many passengers.

Last edited by Madison : 05-03-2006 at 20:35.
  #9   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 05-03-2006, 20:37
Wetzel's Avatar
Wetzel Wetzel is offline
DC Robotics
FRC #2914 (Tiger Pride)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Rookie Year: 1999
Location: DC
Posts: 3,522
Wetzel has a reputation beyond reputeWetzel has a reputation beyond reputeWetzel has a reputation beyond reputeWetzel has a reputation beyond reputeWetzel has a reputation beyond reputeWetzel has a reputation beyond reputeWetzel has a reputation beyond reputeWetzel has a reputation beyond reputeWetzel has a reputation beyond reputeWetzel has a reputation beyond reputeWetzel has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Wetzel
Re: Rules that are [not] getting called at Regionals, the +s and -s

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ethulin
The bad:
PACNW: The remaining balls after the robots are loaded are not in corrals at beginning of match, they are in plastic bins behind player stations
PACNW: In the above situation the remaining balls are not evenly distributed, for example the HPs could have 8 in one bin and 2 in the other
We did the same thing at VCU. We found that when the balls moved towards the entrance of the goal, or backwards from normal scoring direction, they would count as multiple balls. When the corral got to just under 20 balls they would be backed up enough to usually cause counting errors so we had field reset volunteers working to try and keep the number of balls in the corral low to prevent miscounting.

Related to that, I saw a few times where a human player would gesture and point at something on the field and stick an arm into the view of the camera. Should have been a DQ by G39.

Wetzel
__________________
Viva Olancho!
  #10   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 05-03-2006, 20:41
BoyWithCape195 BoyWithCape195 is offline
Registered User
AKA: Ben Gagne
FRC #0195
Team Role: Alumni
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Rookie Year: 2003
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 410
BoyWithCape195 has a brilliant futureBoyWithCape195 has a brilliant futureBoyWithCape195 has a brilliant futureBoyWithCape195 has a brilliant futureBoyWithCape195 has a brilliant futureBoyWithCape195 has a brilliant futureBoyWithCape195 has a brilliant futureBoyWithCape195 has a brilliant futureBoyWithCape195 has a brilliant futureBoyWithCape195 has a brilliant futureBoyWithCape195 has a brilliant future
Send a message via AIM to BoyWithCape195
Re: Rules that are [not] getting called at Regionals, the +s and -s

I noticed that at BAE, many shooters where not shielded anywhere close to what was specified in Team Update # 11 or <S03>. Any one know if there was a reason for this, or was it just the opinion of the robot inspectors?
__________________
#16
2007 UTC New England Regional Champions (1124 and 558)
2007 UTC GM Industrial Design
2006 International Championship Finalist (25 and 968)
2006 Newton Division Champions (25 and 968)
2006 Championship Innovation in Control Award
2006 UTC Quarterfinalist (236 and 230)
2006 UTC Innovation in Control Award
2005 Curie Division Quarterfinalists (703 and 234)
2005 UTC Semifinalist (228 and 236)
2004 UTC Entrepreneurship Award
2004 New Jersey Semifinalists (173 and 11)
2004 New Jersey Sportsmanship Award
  #11   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 05-03-2006, 20:47
Ken Loyd Ken Loyd is offline
Who is John Galt?
FRC #0039 (The 39th Aerosquadron)
Team Role: Teacher
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Rookie Year: 1998
Location: Gilbert, Arizona
Posts: 414
Ken Loyd is a splendid one to beholdKen Loyd is a splendid one to beholdKen Loyd is a splendid one to beholdKen Loyd is a splendid one to beholdKen Loyd is a splendid one to beholdKen Loyd is a splendid one to beholdKen Loyd is a splendid one to beholdKen Loyd is a splendid one to behold
Re: Rules that are [not] getting called at Regionals, the +s and -s

[quote=M. Krass]Rule G26 states that a 5-pt. penalty is to be assessed for every 5 seconds that a robot remains off sides.

In Portland on Saturday the head ref gave a great explanation of Rule 26. He even went so far as to suggest a remedy. If an alliance member is unable to move, some one should push the robot on sides or have another of your robots stay onsides. A "tip of the hat" to the refs in Portland! I felt they did a great job.

Ken
__________________
Ken Loyd
Teacher/Advisor
Team #39
Highland High School
  #12   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 05-03-2006, 20:47
Steve W Steve W is offline
Grow Up? Why?
no team
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Rookie Year: 2002
Location: Toronto,Ontario Canada
Posts: 2,523
Steve W has a reputation beyond reputeSteve W has a reputation beyond reputeSteve W has a reputation beyond reputeSteve W has a reputation beyond reputeSteve W has a reputation beyond reputeSteve W has a reputation beyond reputeSteve W has a reputation beyond reputeSteve W has a reputation beyond reputeSteve W has a reputation beyond reputeSteve W has a reputation beyond reputeSteve W has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Rules that are [not] getting called at Regionals, the +s and -s

i was at NJ and the problem was not with the refs. I believe that they did a great job (yeah even you Stu). The rules that I saw not called were on inspections. <R11,R12> were not enforced. The flag rule was not enforced. The bumper rules were not enforced.

It seems that they were very liberal on all of these rules. I measured one bumper that started 6 1/2" from the floor. There was another that cleared the bumpers on the other bots. I hope that this is standard throughout all regionals. If not then there will be a lot of upset teams that attend second regionals.

I did not see the testing about shooter speed but I was told that it was done. I did however see robots shoot from center field and the ball was going high or rising as it got to the goal. There is nothing in place to enforce ball speed. Even when testing there is no surety that they are running at max speed. As you know, there are no speeders on the streets until there is a radar gun to catch them. If baseballs can be clocked at 110 MPH then why not a Poof ball?
__________________
We do not stop playing because we grow old;
we grow old because we stop playing.
  #13   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 05-03-2006, 21:30
Morgan Gillespie's Avatar
Morgan Gillespie Morgan Gillespie is offline
I haven't any bullets
AKA: NPC / Mercury Rising
FRC #0025 (Raider Robotix)
Team Role: Driver
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Rookie Year: 2006
Location: North Brunswick, New Jersey
Posts: 505
Morgan Gillespie has a reputation beyond reputeMorgan Gillespie has a reputation beyond reputeMorgan Gillespie has a reputation beyond reputeMorgan Gillespie has a reputation beyond reputeMorgan Gillespie has a reputation beyond reputeMorgan Gillespie has a reputation beyond reputeMorgan Gillespie has a reputation beyond reputeMorgan Gillespie has a reputation beyond reputeMorgan Gillespie has a reputation beyond reputeMorgan Gillespie has a reputation beyond reputeMorgan Gillespie has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Morgan Gillespie
Re: Rules that are [not] getting called at Regionals, the +s and -s

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ethulin
PACNW: Some human players would step out of the alliance zone to throw and were not assessed any penalty
We were told this rule would not be enforced and people who broke them would only be given a warning. I didn't see anyone take advantage of that so it was all fine.
__________________
Bristol-Myers Squibb Company
Events Competed:
-Duel on Delaware 05, 06, 07, 08 - Ramp Riot 05, 06, 07 08 - Brunswick Eruption 05, 06, 07 08 - PARC 06, 07, 08 - Monty Madness 0608 - Battle O' Baltimore 07 08 - Pascack Panda-monium - 08
__________________________________________________ _________________________
NJ 06, 07, 08 09 - UTC 07 -LV 06 - HI 08 - ATL CMP 06, 07, 08

  #14   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 05-03-2006, 21:33
BoyWithCape195 BoyWithCape195 is offline
Registered User
AKA: Ben Gagne
FRC #0195
Team Role: Alumni
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Rookie Year: 2003
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 410
BoyWithCape195 has a brilliant futureBoyWithCape195 has a brilliant futureBoyWithCape195 has a brilliant futureBoyWithCape195 has a brilliant futureBoyWithCape195 has a brilliant futureBoyWithCape195 has a brilliant futureBoyWithCape195 has a brilliant futureBoyWithCape195 has a brilliant futureBoyWithCape195 has a brilliant futureBoyWithCape195 has a brilliant futureBoyWithCape195 has a brilliant future
Send a message via AIM to BoyWithCape195
Re: Rules that are [not] getting called at Regionals, the +s and -s

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mercury Rising
We were told this rule would not be enforced and people who broke them would only be given a warning. I didn't see anyone take advantage of that so it was all fine.
At BAE, this rule was enforced excessively, I heard many calls on this. The only problem i noticed on Saturday was an incursion missed by a referee, two volunteers caught it and informed said referee.
__________________
#16
2007 UTC New England Regional Champions (1124 and 558)
2007 UTC GM Industrial Design
2006 International Championship Finalist (25 and 968)
2006 Newton Division Champions (25 and 968)
2006 Championship Innovation in Control Award
2006 UTC Quarterfinalist (236 and 230)
2006 UTC Innovation in Control Award
2005 Curie Division Quarterfinalists (703 and 234)
2005 UTC Semifinalist (228 and 236)
2004 UTC Entrepreneurship Award
2004 New Jersey Semifinalists (173 and 11)
2004 New Jersey Sportsmanship Award
  #15   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 05-03-2006, 21:48
Kim Masi's Avatar
Kim Masi Kim Masi is offline
125 Member, cause Brando says so :p
FRC #0125 (NUTRONS)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Rookie Year: 2004
Location: Orlando, FL
Posts: 343
Kim Masi has a reputation beyond reputeKim Masi has a reputation beyond reputeKim Masi has a reputation beyond reputeKim Masi has a reputation beyond reputeKim Masi has a reputation beyond reputeKim Masi has a reputation beyond reputeKim Masi has a reputation beyond reputeKim Masi has a reputation beyond reputeKim Masi has a reputation beyond reputeKim Masi has a reputation beyond reputeKim Masi has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Kim Masi
Re: Rules that are [not] getting called at Regionals, the +s and -s

I think the refs at BAE in NH did an awesome job with the penalties, they were very strict on human players and the 3" rule. However, I did notice the lack of ramming penalties. Last year, there were lots of penalties for ramming and contact, but I don't think I saw it called once all day Saturday. Also, there were a couple of robots that had an illegal shooter, but were still allowed to compete. They had their shooter completely exposed, with their wheel spinning at high velocities with no shielding. Personally, I think this is really dangerous, and something should have been done.
__________________
Bobcat Robotics-Team 177: 2004-2007
The NUTRONS-Team 125: 2008-2009, 2011-2012ish
Closed Thread


Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
AZ Regionals: Incorrect Scoring? ArmoredFairy698 Regional Competitions 68 21-04-2005 21:34
Should teams be allowed to attend multiple regionals? AJunx General Forum 56 12-04-2005 14:13
Chief Delphi went to three regionals? FIRSTfan General Forum 12 08-04-2002 11:07
Robot electrical systems rules Morgan Jones Rules/Strategy 5 06-01-2002 00:50


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 17:56.

The Chief Delphi Forums are sponsored by Innovation First International, Inc.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © Chief Delphi