2006 NASA/VCU Regional!

[WorstPirateEver]

Congrats to the winning teams! ..we so pwned that regional though..

414 and 401 were amazingly strong defenders during those matches! Thanks guys!

The umm... problem.. with 414's autonomous mode was unfortunate.. plus the "disqualification" in taking away our alliances points for team 414 "going too far into the lower goal" was completely rediculous (heck.. they could have taken more than 20 points away for that and we still would have won... bad rule) , so no Atlanta... oh well :/

However, it was an awesome experience and the perfect game concept! It was really fun playing with and against you guys.

[bombadier337]

Just wanted to get everyone else's opinion and post mine. I personally think FIRST should talk to team 539 after what I saw at the VCU regional. I'm fine with teams building purely defensive robots, but I was appalled by what I saw from 539. You never would have known that machine was made to play Aim High, let alone be in a FIRST competition. The machine consisted of a ramming plate, driven by a large pneumatic actuator, that looked like it was designed to push robots extremely hard and most likely lead to damage. I wasn't happy about that, but what really made me angry was the vacuum. They had a 120 lbs vacuum on the front of the robot, whose purpose was to try and latch onto lexan plates of other machines. This robot honestly made me wonder if they had even seen the game before they built it. Last year, they resorted to trying to flip other robots repeatedly when their tetra placer didn't work properly, and this year they simply tried to damage other robots. I just feel like they really have no respect for the ideals that guide FIRST, and that they need to refocus their goals. I don't know what caused this, and I don't know if other teams mentoring would help. I just figured I would throw that out, and see what everyone thought.

[GB330033]

I watched VCU on NASA TV, and was intrigued by 539. They reminded me a lot of my team's robot last year: a small, non-scoring, defensive robot.

I wasn't there, so I only know what I saw on TV. I didn't see a ramming plate, but I did see the piston powered brake, at least, it looked like a brake. It seemed that they would push someone, and put down the brake to avoid being pushed back. Brilliant strategy. I also didn't see the vacuum you speak of, but once again, I only saw what was on TV. However, I'm curious, if the vaccum weighed 120 pounds, what was the rest of their robot?

I don't think they were trying to damage other robots, I believe they were simply playing defense. FIRST said very early on that there would be a lot of contact this year, as was made evident by the bumper rule. Though 539 may have been driving a bit fast at times, they were playing within the rules. I don't think that a robot designed solely for destruction would have
a. Made it through inspection
b. Not been noticed by the officials
and c. Made it onto an elimination alliance

It just doesn't add up. Clearly, if they weren't stopped by the officials, they were playing within the rules. Their machine was built with a defensive strategy in mind. That's the beauty of FIRST, everyone comes up with a different strategy for the problem at hand. Some decided to build shooters to score points, some decided to build defensive robots, some decided to do both. 539 is one of the rare teams who decided on sole defense. I think it's painfully clear they 539 saw the game, knew the game, and realized how important defense would be. They then created a robot for pure defense. Remember it's better to be good at one thing than to be bad at many things.

Edit: Hrm, upon further investigation, I noticed that 539 ended up allied with your team in the end. Usually, no matter the outcome, alliance partners are good friends and have a good time. Did yall have a falling out after the quarters? Like I said, I only know what I saw on TV, and what I saw was a bot built for defense. Being on their alliance, you likely know more than I do, but your whole post seems somewhat harsh for an alliance partner.

[bombadier337]

Originally Posted by GB330033

Edit: Hrm, upon further investigation, I noticed that 539 ended up allied with your team in the end. Usually, no matter the outcome, alliance partners are good friends and have a good time. Did yall have a falling out after the quarters? Like I said, I only know what I saw on TV, and what I saw was a bot built for defense. Being on their alliance, you likely know more than I do, but your whole post seems somewhat harsh for an alliance partner.

No, it was actually an accident we picked them, a mentor got team numbers mixed up. We tried to build a wall on it after the mistake so it could block shots, which you may have noticed. And what you probably didn't see was the vacuum. They were told if they used it again they would be disqualified (can't confirm that's true, though I know for a fact they argued it through inspections).

[GB330033]

Ah, well in that case, I apologize. I only know what I was shown in the broadcast. It seems odd though, that a veteran team such as 539 would opt for destruction. I liked the makeshift wall, it had potential, but it seemed like they had driving issues during the quarters.

Even with all that has been said, I don't know if they deserve being called out like this. I mean, it's clear they were going for defense, but were misguided a bit. I don't think that's contrary to the ideas of FIRST, I think it very much follows them. Things like this happen in the real world, ideas are misguided, things go wrong, and bad things happen. They might not fit the "perfect" model of a FIRST participant, but that's no reason to call them out.

[Nuttyman54]

I watched some of the recorded webcasts, and they didn't look NEARLY as agressive as some other teams out there. They weren't as fast, nor as pushy as other teams (Watch the finals matches and you'll see what i mean). I could see a spot for a vacuum on the front, but calling their robot destructive is really an exaggeration.

[mrmummert]

hello...
We too had trouble with 539 both this year and last year...
(they tipped our alliance partner 616 over and beat on us with that bots flipping board during semi finals last year)
We went against both 539 and 975 (also very defencesive)
at the same time during the quarter finals. I think 539 was built as a push bot
E.I. meant to push balls into the corner goal,hence the plate on the front.
During one match 975 while playing defence tipped themselves and our partner 343 over at the same time.

[btgdaniel]

Originally Posted by Collin Fultz

Way to go team 1731...rookie #1 seed!

Thanks so much -- we had a great run, and lots of fun! Great job, alliance partners 414 (Smokie) and 401 (Hokie Guard)! Hats off to team 1885, Rookie All-Star Award -- ROBOCAT!!!

[bombadier337]

Originally Posted by btgdaniel

Thanks so much -- we had a great run, and lots of fun! Great job, alliance partners 414 (Smokie) and 401 (Hokie Guard)! Hats off to team 1885, Rookie All-Star Award -- ROBOCAT!!!

I know you all really wanted to make it to the championship. Last year, 1541 was a rookie a we really wanted to win Rookie All Star and go to Nationals. Unfortunately, we got Rookie Inspiration (which was still awesome) and couldn't go. We decided just to go and watch and still had a great time chilling with some VCU teams. It's also a great chance to see all the other teams. I would seriously recommend going if you can. Also, congrats to team 1885, it was fun in that first round!

[mrmummert]

congrats to team 1885 also from team 1610...you guys are where we were last year...keep it up.
Also congrats go out to team 1541 and 1731...you guys rocked at VCU.

[Craig1989]

Originally Posted by bombadier337

They were told if they used it again they would be disqualified (can't confirm that's true, though I know for a fact they argued it through inspections).

That isn't actually true, while there was naturally some controversy over the issue, the inspectors, judges and refs all read the rules carefully and confirmed the suction cup was legal.

As far as the "120 pound suction cup" that was how much it can hold when suspended vertically, not the weight of it. <- Just thought I would clear that up.

---------------------------

Now anyway here is our story in short:

We are a very small team, with only 1 mentor and 3 or 4 active team participants, we also do not have the money to purchase expensive parts or employ external help on our robot. All of the work you see on our robot was preformed by a group of 4 people with a budget of around 500$. Previous years we have worked very hard on creating an effective offensive robot, however, to put things short we have just been outclassed. We were very proud of our robot last year however when we arrived our alliance partners just wanted us to play defense, and let their laser guided (exaggeration) arms work on the offense.

After last years experience we decided to try and create a competitive robot, knowing full well there was no way we could compete with all the other teams in offense we created a strong defensive robot. To stop any confusions here is what our robot had:

- Pneumatic Brake powered by 2 cylinders that lifted our robot of the ground.
- Pneumatic Bumper that extended to slowly push other robots out the way
- Suction Cup to suck onto other robots flat panels, (while a nice scare factor it was very hard to use in practice)
- Suction Cup on underside of break for sucking to the slipping ramp surface.

While the bumper on the front was used mainly for defense it could also be used to push balls into the bottom goals.

We in no way intended our robot to be 'cheap' or 'unsportsmanlike' or 'against the first way' we just simply wanted to create a robot that was competitive using the small resources we had available to ourselves. We studied the Aim High game very carefully and discovered that being defensive would work very well in this game (which it did placing 19/64 teams). We did however compensate by recruiting a successful human player who could make 7 out of 10 shots in the bottom goals.

As far as the quarter finals went we got midlocanics to help with our autonomous programming, (thanks guys), unfortunately we hit the wall so fast that it dented our rear break into the right wheel, prohibiting any movement on that side. Hence the circles in the first round.

Hopefully I have cleared everything up, feel free to ask anymore questions if you have them.

Craig

Team Driver.

[adamt71389]

Well put Craig. Sometimes people just assume without thinking and make complaints about ideas that they didn't come up with. Seriously guys, there was nothing cheap about this. Being cheap is hiring engineers to build the majority of a teams robot, when we are actually doing what first wants- students to build the vast majority of it and learn about it.

Adam

Human Player.

[Joe Matt]

Originally Posted by Craig1989

That isn't actually true, while there was naturally some controversy over the issue, the inspectors, judges and refs all read the rules carefully and confirmed the suction cup was legal.

As far as the "120 pound suction cup" that was how much it can hold when suspended vertically, not the weight of it. <- Just thought I would clear that up.

Now anyway here is our story in short:

We are a very small team, with only 1 mentor and 3 or 4 active team participants, we also do not have the money to purchase expensive parts or employ external help on our robot. All of the work you see on our robot was preformed by a group of 4 people with a budget of around 500$. Previous years we have worked very hard on creating an effective offensive robot, however, to put things short we have just been outclassed. We were very proud of our robot last year however when we arrived our alliance partners just wanted us to play defense, and let their laser guided (exaggeration) arms work on the offense.

After last years experience we decided to try and create a competitive robot, knowing full well there was no way we could compete with all the other teams in offense we created a strong defensive robot. To stop any confusions here is what our robot had:

- Pneumatic Brake powered by 2 cylinders that lifted our robot of the ground.
- Pneumatic Bumper that extended to slowly push other robots out the way
- Suction Cup to suck onto other robots flat panels, (while a nice scare factor it was very hard to use in practice)
- Suction Cup on underside of break for sucking to the slipping ramp surface.

While the bumper on the front was used mainly for defense it could also be used to push balls into the bottom goals.

We in no way intended our robot to be 'cheap' or 'unsportsmanlike' or 'against the first way' we just simply wanted to create a robot that was competitive using the small resources we had available to ourselves. We studied the Aim High game very carefully and discovered that being defensive would work very well in this game (which it did placing 19/64 teams). We did however compensate by recruiting a successful human player who could make 7 out of 10 shots in the bottom goals.

As far as the quarter finals went we got midlocanics to help with our autonomous programming, (thanks guys), unfortunately we hit the wall so fast that it dented our rear break into the right wheel, prohibiting any movement on that side. Hence the circles in the first round.

Hopefully I have cleared everything up, feel free to ask anymore questions if you have them.

Craig

Team Driver.

Craig,

Thanks for clearing it up from a first person perspective. I'm fully aware of the plight you're facing, and believe it or not, 384's had many a tight time with money.

What confuses me still is WHY. I know you want a defensive robot, but you've put yourself in a VERY bad position. We were one of the teams you almost tipped over last year on your way to the top in the semi-finals. We weren't the only.

My question is this: is playing defense by nearly tipping over robots and having a pneumatic bumper and suction cup gracious or professional? Did it cross your mind that at one point that you were lucky you didn't get disqualified for tipping over robots? Did you possibly rethink your strategy to prevent such a conflict from happening? And what about seeking help from other teams in the area? I know $500 is not much, but couldn't the pneumatics and such go towards some sort of dumper mechanism for the balls? I give second chances, and I wanted to see what you guys did this year, but frankly, I'm worried that if this trend continues, what next? What if the suction cup actually worked? What if the "bumpers" worked too well? Should we just chalk it up to an under funded team trying to compete? Should we lower the standard of sportsmanship in FIRST just because a team can't compete with the Beattys, Wildstangs, and TechnoKats of FIRST? I hope not.

[end rant]

[adamt71389]

Originally Posted by bombadier337

I personally think FIRST should talk to team 539 after what I saw at the VCU regional. I'm fine with teams building purely defensive robots, but I was appalled by what I saw from 539. You never would have known that machine was made to play Aim High, let alone be in a FIRST competition. The machine consisted of a ramming plate, driven by a large pneumatic actuator, that looked like it was designed to push robots extremely hard and most likely lead to damage.

If you feel so stongly about this, then why did your team program our robot to go full speed ahead into the other alliance's big scorer in autonomous period? Personally I think that you're trying to make us alone your excuse for losing, but that's ok, we all try to put blame onto other things sometimes.


Really Joe? Sparky has been in that situation? When? Seems to me that you probably had the most resources and funding of anyone in that competition. I don't mean this offensively (no pun intended).

[Joe Matt]

Originally Posted by adamt71389

Really Joe? Sparky has been in that situation? When? Seems to me that you probably had the most resources and funding of anyone in that competition. I don't mean this offensively (no pun intended).

No you totally did.

Yes really, ask those from season 1 how money was. Or ask how many people are going to Champs. Maybe we should go back to a post you did......

Well put Craig. Sometimes people just assume without thinking and make complaints...