This is a brutal game.

[Rick TYler]

It's kind of off-topic (my bad), but it does touch on one design decision made by most teams I saw in Portland and here on CD, too. The ball collectors were usually made by putting a roller on the end of the 'bot, either with a conveyor belt attached or not. Since the roller (or belt) needed to push against something, there was either another roller, another belt, or a plate of some kind on the inside edge to provide pressure for the ball to be moved upwards.

After building three (3) prototype collectors we put the roller on the inside, and a pressure bar on the outside of the robot. The ball squeezes under the bar, which is set about 5.5 inches above the floor, and then is trapped between the conveyor belt on the inside and a pair of vertical rails at the end of the bot. The ball rides up the rails, and is then deflected into the hopper by a curved piece of Lexan. This kept all the delicate spinning bits on the inside and only a strong and easily-replaced pressure bar on the outside. Our pressure bar was bent, but the collector would still have worked (if we had a hopper, which is another story altogether).

[Uberbots]

I know the carnage in our robot wasnt nearly as bad as some that i have read...
but we left one match with a busted electronics protecteion plate (which we fixed with tape at the last minute). We also left another match with a torn bumper (which we fixed with 2 band aids).
and then our outer protective netting got progressively worse throught the 'battles', and by the end of the finals we had over 4 gaping holes in that netting. it was pretty awful.

sorry i have no pictures... i neglected to bring my camera.

[Kevin Kolodziej]

This definitely IS a brutal game, without a question! The defensive aspect of the game is wonderful and keeps the matches extremely interesting.

However, this is quite a bit of what I would consider "unnecessary roughness" going on. When a team is getting pushed into the corner (while not trying to score) and gets wedged up on the ramp and a ball and is then repeatedly rammed after losing mobility, that seems excessive to me. When a robot has lost its drive system and obviously has no balls in its posession or any intention of gathering any and a defensive bot flies across the length of the field to ram that incapacitated bot, that seems excessive to me.

There are clearly defined rules for that sort of thing that are not being enforced. The quick turnaround time between matches (at least in the smaller regionals) leaves little time for major repairs. Yes, robots should have been built a bit more robust this year than in the past, but there have been some pretty clear examples in this thread of robust parts being rendered useless.

Kev

[Jeremiah H]

Originally Posted by Andrew Blair

Maybe someone from the Pittsburgh regional could comment on the play there?

*For once, beefy stuff can help you out!

Just want to say this:
Pitt was a great regional.
-and-
Defense is where it's at! I was told by 395's captain that when they saw how well we were doing just scoring twice in the corners and then playing defense, that they decided to turn off thier shooter and try the same thing. Their alliance (#1 seed) beat ours (#2 seed) in the third match of the finals 52-10 (or something to that effect). I just want to point out that we were pushing most everyone sideways, and even against 395 could move them a little if we were in low gear. Seeing as how we beat them in the last qualifying match, I think that it would have been an incredible final round if our bot hadn't lost a chain. But, its done and I am glad for 395, 1743, and 1038 and their regional title. We recieved the GM Industrial Design award for our robot, I/we are very proud of that one. I just want to thank the winners for a great match and that incredible show of GP, and our alliance partners 1629 and 1370 for keeping our alliance going when our bot wasn't working right.

Thanks again to all and keep up the good work!

[BobC]

It is not too bad last year in Long Island our bot was ramed from about 15 feet twice until we fliped nothing was ever called.

[Koko Ed]

Originally Posted by sanddrag

Does anyone else agree? We took some of the most incredible hits with no penalties whatsoever on the offenders. I like a little bit of fighting in FIRST games, but it's getting pretty brutal out there. We severely cracked and bent the faceplate of a small CIM motor. Somehow wrecked a big CIM motor (we think due to somebody repeatedly hitting us when we were already flipped over.) We bent 1x1x1/8" wall box tubing beyond belief.

And remember, this is coming from the person who said "If you don't like contact, your robot is not built well enough" And I still think our robot is built well enough.

Is this game being played rough at your regionals? Are ramming or destructional strategy penalties being given? I haven't seen a single one.

Most definitely this is the roughest FIRST games ever and I'm sure they'll be alot of people screaming "(The Robot Competition That Shall Not Be Named)" but it's not like that at all. The goal of The Robot Competition That Shall Not Be Named is to absolutely destroy the opponent and nothing else. The rough play is due to very tough defense to keep good offensive bot from scoring. If all they do is defense they can still lose if they slip up and the offensive bots can score (that's what happened to us at FLR when 229 got away and put three balls in late). Good defense can help you win but you still have to score somehow.
There's rough play in hockey but no one starts calling it Ultimate Fighting because things get rough. Let's not go too crazy here neither.

[jagman2882]

Originally Posted by Koko Ed

Most definitely this is the roughest FIRST games ever

i dunno, 2003 Stack Attack was VERY physical at the top of the ramp, that game was a blast from a drivers standpoint

[JVGazeley]

I saw a battery knocked physically out of a Robot and the Brazilian team seemed to have large cracks in their plastic at NYC.

Our robot got so battered that there was perhaps only two screws holding on the entire right hand cover of our robot by the end, with a substantial amount of Cable ties on the robot. It didn't stop us from being defensive in Autonomous though, charging towards the far goal to block an opponent from scoring, with the 'occassional' contact resulting from it...

Mind you, some teams are getting disciplined as our opponents were disqualified in the second heat of our semi-final for something along the lines of excessive ramming at high speed so I'm told for their actions against 694's robot Joshua. If it weren't for that decision, they would have been in the final instead of us... we won the tie-breaker by 2 points.

[Steve Kaneb]

I love this contact-oriented type of game. We had to design and build a robot that was able to stand up to the rigors of the game, and I like nothing better than watching our robot come out working and on top after a great defensive match.
One of the best things to happen to us this competition was match 31 at the Florida Regional. During our autonomous mode, 108 (a nice robot, I tell you) went defensive and hit us, moving us about 6 inches sideways. The turret auto-aimed and we shot 5 of 6 in. A great part of that match was the pushing matches we had with 108 and others. Nothing over the top, everything for a purpose. The best thing to come out of that match was all 6 robots coming off working just fine.
Overall, I like the defensive struggles, because it brings in especially how good your driver is, and improves every part of the drive crew. Our driver got progressively better during our two regionals, mostly because of the interaction on defense.
Our robot ended up being made mostly of lexan, and I could not be happier with the results. No part of our frame has broken due to contact with another robot, and if we had made it out of aluminum, our frame would look nothing like it did when we shipped.
I also love defensive struggles because the respect you gain for a team when you have to really work around them. At the Florida comp, we were in a match against 180 and 233. 233 could push us around without too much trouble, and those two robots were up there among the best shooters at the competition. I believe that match in particular opened my eyes to how much our first year driver has improved, as he only allowed one ball from their collective alliance to be scored in the center goal during their offensive period. We lost that match, but I believe that our good defensive showing shot us up many alliance pickers' sheets.
I cannot express enough how much I love to see a brutal match end with all 6 robots working. There's nothing better, for me as a purist, to see a game end with a vast majority of the points being scored in autonomous and on the ramp.

[Kirk]

Originally Posted by sanddrag

Does anyone else agree? We took some of the most incredible hits with no penalties whatsoever on the offenders. I like a little bit of fighting in FIRST games, but it's getting pretty brutal out there. We severely cracked and bent the faceplate of a small CIM motor. Somehow wrecked a big CIM motor (we think due to somebody repeatedly hitting us when we were already flipped over.) We bent 1x1x1/8" wall box tubing beyond belief.

And remember, this is coming from the person who said "If you don't like contact, your robot is not built well enough" And I still think our robot is built well enough.

Is this game being played rough at your regionals? Are ramming or destructional strategy penalties being given? I haven't seen a single one.

You guys have pics of the damage? Sounds like its pretty brutal out there?

Kirk

[Richsgt]

Quote

Originally posted by M. Krass
Obviously, there are more people participating now than ever before and so there are more voices crying about even the most inconsequential of topics. Also, I'd not be surprised to learn that as FIRST continues to grow and veteran teams vanish from the landscape, the median level of experience across all FIRST teams is decreasing. As a result, we're likely to continue seeing machines that are designed by teams with less practical experience in the FIRST arena.

Interesting point on the older teams vanishing from the landscape. While I'm on a veteran team now, the older engineers aren't doing the program anymore, but the younger engineers now are FIRST alumni from 5-6 years ago. On this years machine a large portion of the design and integration was handled by FIRST alumni, who were on our team back when they were in High school. I myself was on this team(177) as a high schooler(96-99) and am back when i started working for the parent company again, and there are at least 3 others as well in the same situation.

To get somewhere and make a point, I'm curious how many of the FIRST 'experience' is actually now coming from people who are alumni of the student portion. So as some of the older teams vanish, the actual students come back as mentors with all the experience they had for the rookie teams, giving stronger rookie teams. Just a thought from what I see on our team.

As to rough play we definitely planned on this being a vicious game and built towards it accordingly making sure we had a solid frame that wouldn't bend/break easily which was a mistake made once wayyy back. The thing is though making a rugged frame requires a lot of initial thought as to where to put the wheels, the mounts, material, how too keep the weight in the right positions and we had to re-do parts 3-4 times in some places in order to get it right when we noticed a problem. It definitely paid off but this is a rough game, but that might be what makes it exciting as people off the street, while not understanding all the rules, can always appreciate the game from heavy hits to balls flying all over when a robot is hit while shooting.

[Wayne C.]

Originally Posted by sanddrag

Does anyone else agree? We took some of the most incredible hits with no penalties whatsoever on the offenders. I like a little bit of fighting in FIRST games, but it's getting pretty brutal out there. We severely cracked and bent the faceplate of a small CIM motor. Somehow wrecked a big CIM motor (we think due to somebody repeatedly hitting us when we were already flipped over.) We bent 1x1x1/8" wall box tubing beyond belief.

And remember, this is coming from the person who said "If you don't like contact, your robot is not built well enough" And I still think our robot is built well enough.

Is this game being played rough at your regionals? Are ramming or destructional strategy penalties being given? I haven't seen a single one.

Remember this---

Re: Bumpers vs Frame which is better
I see bumpers as a failure point. If they rip or fall off or something, they can get caught in your drive system.

I guess you should have used the bumpers... hmmm.

WC

[ChaosParadeXi]

Originally Posted by sanddrag

Does anyone else agree? We took some of the most incredible hits with no penalties whatsoever on the offenders. I like a little bit of fighting in FIRST games, but it's getting pretty brutal out there. We severely cracked and bent the faceplate of a small CIM motor. Somehow wrecked a big CIM motor (we think due to somebody repeatedly hitting us when we were already flipped over.) We bent 1x1x1/8" wall box tubing beyond belief.

And remember, this is coming from the person who said "If you don't like contact, your robot is not built well enough" And I still think our robot is built well enough.

Is this game being played rough at your regionals? Are ramming or destructional strategy penalties being given? I haven't seen a single one.

you have to figure that in order for a rule to matter, it has to be enforced. in the latest games that have been designed, proper self-protection is ESSENTIAL. the fact that there have even been rules allowing bumpers and in the kickoff woody stressed their need (while not being mandatory) you have to consider that when the FIRST organization decides to stress a point that there HAS to be some important reason for it. designing a rudimentary bumper system is simple and effective. there were years I saw teams late throw together bumpers made out of pool foam floats and zip ties. bumpers don't have to be elaborate to work

[Daniel_LaFleur]

This year was by far the most brutal competition I have seen in FIRST. Pushing is fine, but high speed ramming was explicitly spelled out in the rules as a foul, and at the BAE GSR is was ignored by the refs repeatedly. When video evidence was brought to the refs of repeated high speed ramming, they would not look at it.

When we were lined up to shoot one time we were rammed by 2 robots going full speed, they pushed us up the ramp and rolled us (this, while brutal, is part of the game and I have no problems with it). They then again rammed us on our turret to push us out of the way of the ramp so as to be able to climb the ramp (again, brutal, but ok). Then rammed us 2 more times on the turret just for good measure. This was in the semifinals, 2nd match. Seems to me that the high speed ramming rules were being ignored. The only thing I can say is that it was the same for all teams. 1 large CIM motor with a bent shaft was the only damage.

Lesson learned ... make sure your robot can withstand impacts even in areas you wouldnt expect and do not assume all rules will be enforced.

[KenWittlief]

Intent is so hard to capture on video (unless you have a video of the driver screaming "DIE DIE DIE YOU EVIL MINIONS OF SATAN!!!" as he rams the joystick back and forth).