This is a brutal game.

[sanddrag]

Does anyone else agree? We took some of the most incredible hits with no penalties whatsoever on the offenders. I like a little bit of fighting in FIRST games, but it's getting pretty brutal out there. We severely cracked and bent the faceplate of a small CIM motor. Somehow wrecked a big CIM motor (we think due to somebody repeatedly hitting us when we were already flipped over.) We bent 1x1x1/8" wall box tubing beyond belief.

And remember, this is coming from the person who said "If you don't like contact, your robot is not built well enough" And I still think our robot is built well enough.

Is this game being played rough at your regionals? Are ramming or destructional strategy penalties being given? I haven't seen a single one.

[Kim Masi]

Does your team have bumpers? I think FIRST added the bumper idea so that robots can better protect themselves from contact. Granted they are optional, but it was just another option that teams have to keep their robot from being damaged.

[Rick TYler]

It is definitely more rough-and-tumble than last year, but I loved playing and loved watching it. Maybe Portland was "nicer" than some other regionals, but I saw a lot of shoving, nudging, and leaning, but only a very few cases of brutal ramming. Frankly, I saw more high-speed ramming last year than this, and last year no one had big, cushy bumpers to protect themselves. I want to run this game again -- I wish there were off-season events in the northwest.

[yodameister]

Our bot had aluminum square tubing as a crash bar protecting our front roller and we bent 3 of them. We tried extruded fiberglass, but it bent too easily (we destroyed our bottom roller and it prevented us from being fully operational for 2 rounds until we could get it fixed), and then we put some angled steel across the front, and even bent that. Tis a physical game.

[Koko Ed]

Originally Posted by sanddrag

Does anyone else agree? We took some of the most incredible hits with no penalties whatsoever on the offenders. I like a little bit of fighting in FIRST games, but it's getting pretty brutal out there. We severely cracked and bent the faceplate of a small CIM motor. Somehow wrecked a big CIM motor (we think due to somebody repeatedly hitting us when we were already flipped over.) We bent 1x1x1/8" wall box tubing beyond belief.

And remember, this is coming from the person who said "If you don't like contact, your robot is not built well enough" And I still think our robot is built well enough.

Is this game being played rough at your regionals? Are ramming or destructional strategy penalties being given? I haven't seen a single one.

Most definitely this is the roughest FIRST games ever and I'm sure they'll be alot of people screaming "(The Robot Competition That Shall Not Be Named)" but it's not like that at all. The goal of The Robot Competition That Shall Not Be Named is to absolutely destroy the opponent and nothing else. The rough play is due to very tough defense to keep good offensive bot from scoring. If all they do is defense they can still lose if they slip up and the offensive bots can score (that's what happened to us at FLR when 229 got away and put three balls in late). Good defense can help you win but you still have to score somehow.
There's rough play in hockey but no one starts calling it Ultimate Fighting because things get rough. Let's not go too crazy here neither.

[Rick TYler]

Originally Posted by yodameister

Our bot had aluminum square tubing as a crash bar protecting our front roller and we bent 3 of them. We tried extruded fiberglass, but it bent too easily (we destroyed our bottom roller and it prevented us from being fully operational for 2 rounds until we could get it fixed), and then we put some angled steel across the front, and even bent that. Tis a physical game at that.

The front of our bot was a 4x4 piece of 6061T6 with 3/16" walls. Strangely, it went undamaged. The piece of Kitbot chassis rail across the back opening (where our ball sweeper is installed) was bent slightly, though. The game certainly rewarded robust construction and the bumpers were a huge help (although we left them off the front of our bot to make ramp climbing easier).

[Koko Ed]

Originally Posted by Rick TYler

It is definitely more rough-and-tumble than last year, but I loved playing and loved watching it. Maybe Portland was "nicer" than some other regionals, but I saw a lot of shoving, nudging, and leaning, but only a very few cases of brutal ramming. Frankly, I saw more high-speed ramming last year than this, and last year no one had big, cushy bumpers to protect themselves. I want to run this game again -- I wish there were off-season events in the northwest.

You should start one.

[Rick TYler]

Originally Posted by Koko Ed

You should start one.

Yeah, thought of that. We could use my uncle's barn, and my aunt can sew costumes!

[BobC]

It is not too bad last year in Long Island our bot was ramed from about 15 feet twice until we fliped nothing was ever called.

[JohnBoucher]

I have been to both BAE and UTC and I don't think the robot interaction too hard. The bumpers are a must have.
IMHO the referees are calling great matches. If there is too much ramming or excessive pinning it's being called.

[Madison]

Maybe it's just because I come from a bygone era of FIRST, but I don't really think that this year's competition is more violent than anything I've seen in the past. 2002, in particular, continues to represent a high water wark of physical robot interaction in my experience and Aim High stands no chance of approaching it.

Our robot was battered and bruised considerably during the event, though it never once stopped functioning. We saw bent omniwheels, repeatedly bent 3/16" Al plate, sheared 1/4" stainless steel bolts, and our entire chassis was nearly cracked in half. I designed for less contact than the machine saw in competition, but it was by no means the worst damage I've seen to a FIRST machine. We fixed it and moved on.

Strategically, we were focused on scoring and probably saw less contact with other machines overall than did some of our alliance partners. We were never tasked with playing defense, though our drivers certainly didn't avoid a fight, either.

To me, it seems on par with previous years and nowhere near as bad as it has been in the past -- not that I felt 2002's level of contact was excessive, mind you -- and imagine there are some rather easily ratified solutions for the increased celebrity the topic has seen recently.

Obviously, there are more people participating now than ever before and so there are more voices crying about even the most inconsequential of topics. Also, I'd not be surprised to learn that as FIRST continues to grow and veteran teams vanish from the landscape, the median level of experience across all FIRST teams is decreasing. As a result, we're likely to continue seeing machines that are designed by teams with less practical experience in the FIRST arena.

Originally Posted by Rick TYler

Yeah, thought of that. We could use my uncle's barn, and my aunt can sew costumes!

As an aside, I've given some thought to starting a proper off-season event in the Seattle region. Because I like to do things bigger and better than anyone else when I can, I've been trying to find a venue outside a school gymnasium. Pacific Science Center is a leading candidate in my mind, but I think there's some concern in that the Ackerley Family Gallery exhibit space is entirely enclosed in glass

[ForgottenSalad]

We were one of the robots at the florida regional who focused mainly on defense. This wasn't our original strategy, we had designed and built a shooter independant of the harvesting system, but beacuse of weight issues we had to scrap it. Onto the point - The threat of the opposing alliance having a robot that can easily punch 5+ balls into the center goal is enough to bring about a little push-and-shove to knock them off target. We may have been too brutal at times in the eyes of other teams, but for the most part, a lot of the shoving we did with our robot was needed to help win the match. One thing that was nice about having a very robust frame for this year's game was if a team on your alliance could score, but even the slightest hit would ruin their chances, you could play bodyguard for them. A little more of a feeling of teamwork came from that kind of play... Overall, yes this was a more brutal game, but I was happy to see much less flipping than I noticed last year.

Portland was most likely just as rough as other regionals. I believe that the reason it's more rough is due to the time factor. With short scoring periods, a simple 10 seconds of time for a reliable top goal shooter is enough to seal a game. Therefore teams are realizing that they need to have active and constant defense, otherwise the other team can win without contest.

As to robots being damaged, we personally experienced this in the finals. Our bot had flipped (the first and only time it flipped) near the other team's ramp, and they were going to try and climb their ramp, However, the only way that they could do that was to move our bot. However, their choice of moving methods wasn't the nicest. (they repeatedly ramed us, not pushed) The result of this was a breaking of two welds, and a shearing of multiple bolts. I now point out that this was while we were ON THE GROUND.

I'm not complaining about the amount of contact, I actually like how it requires us to design stronger bots. FIRST is giving us more challenges every year, and it seems that this is one of those.

[Kirk]

Originally Posted by sanddrag

Does anyone else agree? We took some of the most incredible hits with no penalties whatsoever on the offenders. I like a little bit of fighting in FIRST games, but it's getting pretty brutal out there. We severely cracked and bent the faceplate of a small CIM motor. Somehow wrecked a big CIM motor (we think due to somebody repeatedly hitting us when we were already flipped over.) We bent 1x1x1/8" wall box tubing beyond belief.

And remember, this is coming from the person who said "If you don't like contact, your robot is not built well enough" And I still think our robot is built well enough.

Is this game being played rough at your regionals? Are ramming or destructional strategy penalties being given? I haven't seen a single one.

You guys have pics of the damage? Sounds like its pretty brutal out there?

Kirk

[Koko Ed]

Originally Posted by M. Krass

As an aside, I've given some thought to starting a proper off-season event in the Seattle region. Because I like to do things bigger and better than anyone else when I can, I've been trying to find a venue outside a school gymnasium. Pacific Science Center is a leading candidate in my mind, but I think there's some concern in that the Ackerley Family Gallery exhibit space is entirely enclosed in glass

I would reccomend starting out small and grow from there. The main goal is to get the off season started ( and do it early so you can get enough teams to come). You can seek bigger venues afterwards (theough cost would then become a concern as well. High school gyms are usually free. Professional venues are not).