This is a brutal game.

[StephLee]

It's a tough, defense-oriented game with lots of pushing, and due to high shooters causing high COGs, lots of tipping. Since there's a period devoted entirely to defense, it's only to be expected that tough - occasionally excessive, but I didn't see that too much at Pitt - defense will be a norm.

I personally love the interaction this game provides. There are so many aspects to focus on, and defense is highlighted more this year than last year. I can't speak for any other year since this is only my team's second year in FIRST, but I love the pushing and shoving.

[Jeff K.]

Originally Posted by yodameister

We tried extruded fiberglass, but it bent too easily

I'm not sure, but doesn't fiberglass just shatter?

Originally Posted by sanddrag

We severely cracked and bent the faceplate of a small CIM motor.
Is this game being played rough at your regionals? Are ramming or destructional strategy penalties being given? I haven't seen a single one.

We also had destroyed a small cim motor from competition and tweaked our chassis. The front 1/8" 6061 T6 (I believe) aluminum tubing that protected the collector got bent and that tweaked well...the rest of the chassis. It had also made the chain for our collector lose its tension and become loose enough to come off during a match. Besides that, the rest of the support members weren't square any more and so pretty much, all in all, our bot was tweaked, but still could drive and collect, so I'm happy for the most part. Nothing really all that major.

The defensive plays of hitting other robots and pushing them around, whether it be around the field or even on the ramp, are all legitimate plays to prevent robots from getting balls into the center or corner goals. I remember during the semifinals and finals, the game play was getting pretty rough and there were a lot of parts that teams had been dropping around the field like sidepanels and even chain. I heard about a team losing a motor.

There weren't any penalties being given at BAE for unnecessary roughness, but there is one new rule in update #15 about hitting robots while they are dumping balls into the corner goals.

[Justin]

My answer to this question is plain and simple no. The defense seen is this game is something that has been missing for a long long time. Defense is something you have to be ready for, and no matter how tough your robot is you are going to take some hits, your robot is going to get hurt. I think that FIRST went out of their way this year to implore teams to build tough robots, with bumpers, etc, etc. I think that no secret was made of the fact that this was going to be a rougher game. I mean they created a dynamic which encourages teams to play defense (thank you FIRST). The matches (especially finals) I've witnessed this year are some of the best I have seen since the pre-2000 era largely because teams are playing defense this year and they can do so without fear of 30 point penalty, a DQ, or some controversy for flipping. I also think that truly blatant things are getting called for the most part I have witnessed some well founded penalties for teams that basically ram another robot from the other side of the field these penalties are justified as far as I am concerned. Being and old-schooler I am glad to see a return to a dynamic where defense is excepted and can again be a viable strategy.

To this end I'll just offer a little advice. First be prepared for defense, if you have a great robot and a great shooter you are going to get d'ed up hard...be ready for it. Also be weary of all offensive strategies. I saw a few alliances at UTC who put together three stellar shooters. They lost to an alliance with really defensive style of play. Proving that perhaps in this year's game "the best offense is a good defense" is not necessarily the case. Lastly loosing to a defensive alliance is a different experience. It stings a little more because with an offensive loss it was for the most part under your control. In the case of loosing because you got d'ed up by two robots that is perhaps something you have less control over. I think it is a different feeling.

So in conclusion I love the new style of play, be ready, and GOOD LUCK!!!

Justin

[Richsgt]

Quote

Originally posted by M. Krass
Obviously, there are more people participating now than ever before and so there are more voices crying about even the most inconsequential of topics. Also, I'd not be surprised to learn that as FIRST continues to grow and veteran teams vanish from the landscape, the median level of experience across all FIRST teams is decreasing. As a result, we're likely to continue seeing machines that are designed by teams with less practical experience in the FIRST arena.

Interesting point on the older teams vanishing from the landscape. While I'm on a veteran team now, the older engineers aren't doing the program anymore, but the younger engineers now are FIRST alumni from 5-6 years ago. On this years machine a large portion of the design and integration was handled by FIRST alumni, who were on our team back when they were in High school. I myself was on this team(177) as a high schooler(96-99) and am back when i started working for the parent company again, and there are at least 3 others as well in the same situation.

To get somewhere and make a point, I'm curious how many of the FIRST 'experience' is actually now coming from people who are alumni of the student portion. So as some of the older teams vanish, the actual students come back as mentors with all the experience they had for the rookie teams, giving stronger rookie teams. Just a thought from what I see on our team.

As to rough play we definitely planned on this being a vicious game and built towards it accordingly making sure we had a solid frame that wouldn't bend/break easily which was a mistake made once wayyy back. The thing is though making a rugged frame requires a lot of initial thought as to where to put the wheels, the mounts, material, how too keep the weight in the right positions and we had to re-do parts 3-4 times in some places in order to get it right when we noticed a problem. It definitely paid off but this is a rough game, but that might be what makes it exciting as people off the street, while not understanding all the rules, can always appreciate the game from heavy hits to balls flying all over when a robot is hit while shooting.

[Wayne C.]

Originally Posted by sanddrag

Does anyone else agree? We took some of the most incredible hits with no penalties whatsoever on the offenders. I like a little bit of fighting in FIRST games, but it's getting pretty brutal out there. We severely cracked and bent the faceplate of a small CIM motor. Somehow wrecked a big CIM motor (we think due to somebody repeatedly hitting us when we were already flipped over.) We bent 1x1x1/8" wall box tubing beyond belief.

And remember, this is coming from the person who said "If you don't like contact, your robot is not built well enough" And I still think our robot is built well enough.

Is this game being played rough at your regionals? Are ramming or destructional strategy penalties being given? I haven't seen a single one.

Remember this---

Re: Bumpers vs Frame which is better
I see bumpers as a failure point. If they rip or fall off or something, they can get caught in your drive system.

I guess you should have used the bumpers... hmmm.

WC

[MrForbes]

Originally Posted by Stonefan5271138

I'm not sure, but doesn't fiberglass just shatter?

Yes, it does shatter, but first it bends and deflects quite a ways, and this was the problem...we had some bolts that got into the roller when the fiberglass bar deflected too far.



the center of the three bars is 1/8" x 1" steel angle iron. The two aluminum pieces of square tubing had been straightened and then bent again.

The roller problem was mostly due to our crash diet because of a lack of a weight budget, we cut the slots to lose weight and that probably contributed the failure....that's life as a rookie team, I suppose.

Fixing this kind of damage is a nice challenge, so I'm not complaining!

[Andrew Blair]

Huh. Maybe it's because we always seemed to be on the forceful side of the matches, but we didn't see too much damage. I would hope we didn't cause as much damage as is being described. Our worst problem was the poof balls- they would get jammed in our #25 chain, and it would literally *tear* the links apart- something I'd never seen before, even in rough matches. We suffed from some dents and such, but no more than usual. Maybe someone from the Pittsburgh regional could comment on the play there?

*For once, loose tolerance and beefy stuff can help you out!

[meaubry]

YES, YES, YES -
I won't go into rationalizing one way or the other because that is not what you asked in the thread, but I will advise ALL teams yet to play in a match, BRING the maximum allowed amount of material to repair your machines.

Even with as robust of a design that you think you may have, with what I've seen, many robots will need massive repairs (drive trains in particular).
The forces being applied when being hit on the side of your wheels WILL bend many of the axles, frames, mounting brackets, wheels, ect.

This game is BRUTAL and its NOT just from impact loads, I fret more about the damage being incurred from the continual pushing from the side of the machines.

[angelc24]

There is definitely a lot of defense this year but I don't think there is any more than last year. Actually, on our robot, nothing huge has broken so far. A few things here and there but they took only about 5 minutes to fix. Last year, every match we would come off with something worse broken.

[Bill_Hancoc]

Not to sway too far off topic but does it seem like there a lot more bots flipping this year or is it just me?

[Rick TYler]

It's kind of off-topic (my bad), but it does touch on one design decision made by most teams I saw in Portland and here on CD, too. The ball collectors were usually made by putting a roller on the end of the 'bot, either with a conveyor belt attached or not. Since the roller (or belt) needed to push against something, there was either another roller, another belt, or a plate of some kind on the inside edge to provide pressure for the ball to be moved upwards.

After building three (3) prototype collectors we put the roller on the inside, and a pressure bar on the outside of the robot. The ball squeezes under the bar, which is set about 5.5 inches above the floor, and then is trapped between the conveyor belt on the inside and a pair of vertical rails at the end of the bot. The ball rides up the rails, and is then deflected into the hopper by a curved piece of Lexan. This kept all the delicate spinning bits on the inside and only a strong and easily-replaced pressure bar on the outside. Our pressure bar was bent, but the collector would still have worked (if we had a hopper, which is another story altogether).

[Koko Ed]

Originally Posted by Bill_Hancoc

Not to sway too far off topic but does it seem like there a lot more bots flipping this year or is it just me?

Probably because everyone built their robots so tall.
We purposely built our robot short because we didn't want to tip over (and we didn't). I don't understand why everyone is having a fit over thier robot tipping over when they purposely built a tall robot in a physical game. Obviously they valued being able to shoot high over staying upright and underestimated the physical nature of the game.
At the championship it's only going to get tougher.

[Billfred]

From what I saw behind the glass at Florida, it's a very physical game. I didn't see much ramming in the truest sense, but there was lots of bumping and pushing.

Be prepared to get hit. Expect whacks from the other side of the field (as in starting space to starting space). And whatever you do, protect your vitals.

[Uberbots]

I know the carnage in our robot wasnt nearly as bad as some that i have read...
but we left one match with a busted electronics protecteion plate (which we fixed with tape at the last minute). We also left another match with a torn bumper (which we fixed with 2 band aids).
and then our outer protective netting got progressively worse throught the 'battles', and by the end of the finals we had over 4 gaping holes in that netting. it was pretty awful.

sorry i have no pictures... i neglected to bring my camera.

[Kevin Kolodziej]

This definitely IS a brutal game, without a question! The defensive aspect of the game is wonderful and keeps the matches extremely interesting.

However, this is quite a bit of what I would consider "unnecessary roughness" going on. When a team is getting pushed into the corner (while not trying to score) and gets wedged up on the ramp and a ball and is then repeatedly rammed after losing mobility, that seems excessive to me. When a robot has lost its drive system and obviously has no balls in its posession or any intention of gathering any and a defensive bot flies across the length of the field to ram that incapacitated bot, that seems excessive to me.

There are clearly defined rules for that sort of thing that are not being enforced. The quick turnaround time between matches (at least in the smaller regionals) leaves little time for major repairs. Yes, robots should have been built a bit more robust this year than in the past, but there have been some pretty clear examples in this thread of robust parts being rendered useless.

Kev