This is a brutal game.

[Doug G]

I think the point of Sandrag's comment is regarding the ramming of robots that have tipped over. As much as I hate to see it, and yes we got hit while we're down, I think its the nature of this year's game, inadvertanly, that is. Where do most of the robots go down? In front of the ramp, because they get pushed up at angle and can't recover especially with so many having a high CG. Where do you need to be at the end of a match? On the ramp! No wonder downed robots are getting slammed so much.

We tipped in the our second match at PNW. It was painful to see our robot caught inside of another robot while the other robot kept trying everything to rip free of us. And they did eventually. They ripped apart one of our bumpers. I think bumpers are here to stay folks!!

Oh and another note on robots that have tipped over... If they TRY to shoot out a ball while tipped they get a penalty!!! This happen by accident in our match and they considered it as extending outside the 5'x5' area because the robot was about 6' tall and on its side. Kinda funny really. We had two robots down in our alliance and lost miserably - got to love a little salt in the wound.

[JohnBoucher]

This years game has more balances and trade-offs than any one I can remember. Woodie and Dave talked at length about that at kick-off.
IMHO the GDC did a fantastic job balancing the needs and experience level of rookie teams while allowing the veteran teams to build a very robust machine. This has to be a game for everyone.

We seem to forget that this is a learning tool. Don't think that your robot is not as good as the one in the pit next to you. That you made it to this point is my definition of success. My teams robots have been good, bad and ugly BUT they were all beautiful because they were there.

If you like something on another robot, ask them how they did it, or better yet ask them what in their decision process made them design it that way. At UTC they had random pit assignments. The teams were mixed veterans and rookies. Team 1784 form Litchfield, CT was pitted next to Team 126 from Clinton, MA. What a learning experience.

[Joel Glidden]

I'm not directly involved with a team this year, and I haven't actually been to a regional yet. So, take this with a grain of salt.

Don't you guys think that the spike in damaged bots is related to the banning of the inclined plane (wedge)? In prior years, teams that planned to play tough defense usually built bots with wedges. This year, teams that planned to play defense built sledge hammers.

[KenWittlief]

the rules say you cannot make a robot tall enough to block the center goal

and the rules say your team MUST play defense for at least 40 seconds in each match (when you cannot score points)

if you cant block the center goal, what other option do you have but to push the offensive bots away from it?

This was clear from a simple analysis of the game and the rules right after the kickoff meeting.

Brutal? I think brutal would be if we score 25 points for throwing your opponents robots into the bleachers!

[team222badbrad]

Just because you are allotted a 5' height limit doesn't mean you should use it.

Think of where your center of gravity will be if you have just 10 pounds 4 feet high while on the floor and going up the 30 degree ramp?

I've seen more teams this year say they have a low center of gravity, but they built their robot to be nearly 5 feet tall.

They also say they don't have much weight up high, but yet just a few pounds of weight above 3 feet is enough to end up wheels up.

Build strong and play hard, but just remember who your partner may be in the next match.

[ChaosParadeXi]

Originally Posted by sanddrag

Does anyone else agree? We took some of the most incredible hits with no penalties whatsoever on the offenders. I like a little bit of fighting in FIRST games, but it's getting pretty brutal out there. We severely cracked and bent the faceplate of a small CIM motor. Somehow wrecked a big CIM motor (we think due to somebody repeatedly hitting us when we were already flipped over.) We bent 1x1x1/8" wall box tubing beyond belief.

And remember, this is coming from the person who said "If you don't like contact, your robot is not built well enough" And I still think our robot is built well enough.

Is this game being played rough at your regionals? Are ramming or destructional strategy penalties being given? I haven't seen a single one.

you have to figure that in order for a rule to matter, it has to be enforced. in the latest games that have been designed, proper self-protection is ESSENTIAL. the fact that there have even been rules allowing bumpers and in the kickoff woody stressed their need (while not being mandatory) you have to consider that when the FIRST organization decides to stress a point that there HAS to be some important reason for it. designing a rudimentary bumper system is simple and effective. there were years I saw teams late throw together bumpers made out of pool foam floats and zip ties. bumpers don't have to be elaborate to work

[Daniel_LaFleur]

This year was by far the most brutal competition I have seen in FIRST. Pushing is fine, but high speed ramming was explicitly spelled out in the rules as a foul, and at the BAE GSR is was ignored by the refs repeatedly. When video evidence was brought to the refs of repeated high speed ramming, they would not look at it.

When we were lined up to shoot one time we were rammed by 2 robots going full speed, they pushed us up the ramp and rolled us (this, while brutal, is part of the game and I have no problems with it). They then again rammed us on our turret to push us out of the way of the ramp so as to be able to climb the ramp (again, brutal, but ok). Then rammed us 2 more times on the turret just for good measure. This was in the semifinals, 2nd match. Seems to me that the high speed ramming rules were being ignored. The only thing I can say is that it was the same for all teams. 1 large CIM motor with a bent shaft was the only damage.

Lesson learned ... make sure your robot can withstand impacts even in areas you wouldnt expect and do not assume all rules will be enforced.

[KenWittlief]

Intent is so hard to capture on video (unless you have a video of the driver screaming "DIE DIE DIE YOU EVIL MINIONS OF SATAN!!!" as he rams the joystick back and forth).

[Jeremiah H]

Originally Posted by Andrew Blair

Maybe someone from the Pittsburgh regional could comment on the play there?

*For once, beefy stuff can help you out!

Just want to say this:
Pitt was a great regional.
-and-
Defense is where it's at! I was told by 395's captain that when they saw how well we were doing just scoring twice in the corners and then playing defense, that they decided to turn off thier shooter and try the same thing. Their alliance (#1 seed) beat ours (#2 seed) in the third match of the finals 52-10 (or something to that effect). I just want to point out that we were pushing most everyone sideways, and even against 395 could move them a little if we were in low gear. Seeing as how we beat them in the last qualifying match, I think that it would have been an incredible final round if our bot hadn't lost a chain. But, its done and I am glad for 395, 1743, and 1038 and their regional title. We recieved the GM Industrial Design award for our robot, I/we are very proud of that one. I just want to thank the winners for a great match and that incredible show of GP, and our alliance partners 1629 and 1370 for keeping our alliance going when our bot wasn't working right.

Thanks again to all and keep up the good work!

[Daniel_LaFleur]

DIE DIE DIE YOU EVIL MINIONS OF SATAN

LOL, Nah didnt get that

Nor am I complaining, since the refs were not calling it on anyone. Just letting people know whats out there.

BTW, the worst damage done to our robot was self inflicted on the first run of practice on that Thursday. A high speed ram during atonomous (sp?) mode because of a software mistake It destroyed our front plate and pickup roller ... needless to say we had our work cut out for ourselves

[the_short1]

I agree.. it is too rough this year, with too few penalties. We didnt use bumpers @ GLR, because we wanted to get up the ramp, we are considering making them for waterloo though because their is oviously too many "battle bots" out there this year. especially if your wheel breaks due to being rammed SIDEWAYS up the platform and left to fall down on your side.

last year, the weight limit was great, but i think it should differ each year. it is too hard to build a robust robot that can take the punches (this year) with the complexity of this years game (if your robot is multi-function). We swiss cheesed what we could, drilled out gears, and used thinner walled aluminum, only 2 drive motors, and we are 119/120 lbs.

[StephLee]

It's never impossible to build a robust robot. We honestly have not had anything break so far (and now I've probably jinxed us for Chesapeake...); we use bumpers, we have no trouble up the ramp, and we were at 117.3 at last check. We have a shooter, a conveyor, and a dump, as well as pneumatics to run the shooter and dump. Granted, we are using two small CIMs, but something had to go.

Maybe the weight limit could have been different this year, but I think the reason FIRST made it hard to do everything was that they were aiming for a wide variety of designs. Last year, bascially everyone did the same thing. They did it very differently, but still the same thing. There were a few low scorers, but very few that I saw. This year, you have a very few purely defensive bots; bots with dumps and great defense; bots with average defense and good dumps; bots with average defense and good shooting; bots with average defense and good dumping and shooting; I could go on. The point is, this year's game seems to have been designed to allow for a wider variety of functions. To me, that makes the game a good bit more spectator-friendly. One match you see great dumping, then great defense, then great shooting. It's harder to get bored, if you ask me.

[Dan Petrovic]

Originally Posted by KenWittlief

Brutal? I think brutal would be if we score 25 points for throwing your opponents robots into the bleachers!

25 points for every robot on the opponent's alliance not in it's intended orientation... (to avoid controversy)

[Brandon Holley]

Last year was absolutely horrible with penalites. Almost every match there would be some penalty or disqualification. If one robot was called for it, another had to be called. An endless chain of dq's and penalties would start from one questionable call. You also last year have to consider the height of robots compared to this year.....so....

This year robots (in theory) should be a lot less top heavy. There are robots out there pushing, hitting hard, i wont use ramming because that IMO implies malicious intent...I think FIRST adressed the penalty problem from last year perfectly, which is basically to let some stuff go. I love how this game is looking because its exciting, when you see one team relentlessly nailing 3 pointers, chances are theyre going to win, because they deserve to. Penalties, are def having less of an impact.

[pi_guy578]

I personally think brutal is the wrong word for the way the game is being played. It is different; it's a lot more defensive than past games have been. As the drive team coach I am telling my drive team to ram other robots to keep them from scoring, and it works. Our robot has a low center of gravity, a sturdy frame, and bumpers. I also am the team programmer. I switched our autonomous mode from shooting at the center goal, to a more defensive one. Playing a good defense is paying off more for our team than an offensive one was. Defense is a larger part of the game than it has been in the past.

I'm thinking this is a good thing, though. Good engineering is supposed to pay off in FIRST. If you designed a robot with a high center of gravity, weak drive train, and poor frame your robot will tip, get pushed around, and fall apart, and you will fail at the game.

At FLR during the qualifiers, scores were pretty high, usually above 40. During the elimination rounds, there was a significant drop in scores during the match, maybe an average of about 20. Why? Because alliances realized how important defense was to the game.