Adult vs. Student coaches

[sanddrag]

Before I start, I define coach as the person who is part of the 4 member field team who is not a driver, operator, or human player.

We have always believed in having a student coach and we have always had a pretty good student coach. When we get paired up into alliances, often teams will over-sell themselves and leave us with inferior performance on the field. Many times we get screwed over for follwing their strategy instead of our own. Sometimes, we folllow their strategy because they have an adult coach, and our student coach is in no position to argue with an adult coach. I think FIRST should make a rule one way or the other and not allow either one. I speculate that there is some unfairness that comes about from having adult coaches as opposed to student coaches. I know every team has the right to an adult coach but every team has a different philosophy on what and how their students should learn. So:

Do you have an adult coach or a student coach?
Why?
Do you feel it increases your ranking, winning, and success in matches?
Do you feel it enhances your team as a whole?
Do you feel it enhances the accuracy, precision, and speed in driving and operation?
What downsides are there?

And if you have a student coach, please answer the additional question:
Do you feel intimidated or persuaded by adult coaches on your alliance?

[Donut]

What do we count an adult coach who was a student team member just 2 years ago? Our coach this year was a member from 2 years ago who still mentors the team.

Anyway, I think student or adult coaches can work well, it just depends on what kind of experience you have; many students I think are not well suited to be a coach, but the same I can say for many adult mentors as well. Your entire drive team should be capable of deciding things for their own, with the coaches main job being to direct things on the field and communicate with the other teams when the drivers are busy controlling their own robot. Match strategy and such should be a joint discussion, and is easy to take part in for any drive member; I was coach last year, and part time shooter operator this year, but I did relatively the same role except this year I could operate controls rather than telling what to do.

On the student coach note; a student coach should NEVER feel intimidated by an adult coach. I have never felt intimidated by an alliance coach (student or adult), perhaps times I've been a little frustrated or confused by their decision making, but I've always made sure to put in my suggestions. If a student is intimidated, they are either not fully ready to be a coach, or the adult coach is doing something far beyond what they should be doing. Adults and students can be equally capable of strategizing and directing alliance play.

[Cody Carey]

We have a student coach.
It's because our drive-team is made up of the people who built the robot.
I don't feel that it has much of an effect.
It makes it it easier to discuss strategies with him, because he is a peer.



And... We have noted that Adult mentors do demand more attention and autority when deciding what strategy we are going to use, but for our team, that doesn't matter. If we can see that their strategy is flawed... We find a way to use our strategy. Part of the reason we have no trouble disagreeing with adult coaches is because we do it as a whole... a whole drive-team that is.

[Stuart]

well my team uses . . me . .is it because we believe that using college students are better than adults . . is it because when I was on the team 2 years ago I was the "all time spotter" for BEST . . or is it because we only have 12 kids me and another coach for a team. well its one of those. . . as far as strategy goes I have found that if you talk with the drivers(students) well before your match to work out your strategy, you'll stand a better chance of the adult mentor not "having a better idea". . . ohh and also dont get bitter when your idea gets a) shot down b) falls flat on its face during execution, thats just life

[TimCraig]

Our team has gone both ways. Our rookie year was 2004 (Stack Attack) and we put adult coaches on the field because we saw most of the other teams doing it. We also thought it would make things go better as a rookie team. The job of field coach was rotated through several of the adult mentors.

The next fall at a local competition I played floor coach for several matches and just got really irritated having to ride herd on the rest of the floor team so from then on until the last regional we did last year, we had student coaches. I do know that on one occasion the floor team abandoned our strategy because an adult coach on one of the other teams told them to so I sympathize with your assessment of that.

I was talked into coaching at the last regional we went to last year and did so through the practice matches and the qualifying matches Friday morning. At that point we'd been in first place most of the morning and then just before lunch slipped into 2nd place. However, the last match the rest of the floor team totally ignored my instructions so I figured why bother with the stress of coaching if they're not going to pay attention and didn't coach again. Coincidentally, they didn't win another match.

Personally, from the perspective of my team, I don't think any of the students have the presence to be good coaches on the floor. None have made the effort to understand the game and how to apply it to our robot.

I do agree with you that FIRST should make the rule one way or the other though. Few students are going to successfully negotiate with an adult in those situations.

[Rombus]

Do you have an adult coach or a student coach? Me, College student, Adult.
Why?
Well, i got shoved into the coach role in 2005 because our our teams adviser thought that our drive team needed someone with a louder voice to tell them what was going on. In 2006, I was swapping in and out with one of our students, when the drive team called a quick meeting and decided that i would be better coaching all the time since the student coach was giving too much information, and the student coaching thought it was too stressful. Since i was the wire guy on our team, and worked close with programming, i knew what would need to get fixed before we even got back to the pit.

Do you feel it increases your ranking, winning, and success in matches?
Honestly, No. While I'm the on field "Coach", in reality, i act as a 4th set of eyes and communication method between driver and HP. The drivers like it when i was telling them the least amount of information, stuff like "Offence, Defense, 20 seconds, Block XXX they are going to shoot, push balls in" And help the HP get balls. I came up with very little of our actual strategy, our drive team was much better at it than i was.

Do you feel it enhances your team as a whole?
I don't think it makes much of a difference personally.

Do you feel it enhances the accuracy, precision, and speed in driving and operation?
I don't think this matters if your an adult or a student, as long as your doing what your drivers and HP wants and trying to help them rather than push them around.

What downsides are there?
Personally, i would rather a student out there since the only reason i mentor is for the students and to build sweet robots. I would much rather see a student get the experience of being on the field and hearing your team cheering!

And if you have a student coach, please answer the additional question:
Do you feel intimidated or persuaded by adult coaches on your alliance?

Ill go ahead and answer anyway, even i as an adult i feel persuaded or intimidated by other pushy coaches. One case at Buckeye stands out in my mind: we were allied with a team who essentially demanded to be backbot, and there reasoning was "Well your robot cant pickup off the ground" We tried to tell them that if we were backbot we could get at least 7 of 10 balls in even if we got pushed around a bit, but they still wanted to be backbot. That match was the first shutout at buckeye

[Doug G]

It depends on the team and situations. This year, we have a student coaching who's had 4 years in our program and understands the details of the game, tournament, etc... Last year I coached half of the games, he coached half. In 2004, we used student coaches exclusively. I don't think it should ever be a blanket policy, teams should select what suits them best. Frankly, I only coach in situations so as to help the drive team about the little things like not forgeting their controls, or which side to come on off the field, and taking the occasional snapshots. I get frustrated when teams take too long getting on and off the field, and I don't want to be one of those teams!! The event goes so much smoother if it's on-time. All the other issues, like clock management, what move to make, strategy, etc.. can definitely be done by student coaches.

[stevek]

Discussions have surfaced on the team over the last couple years. Though we considered it and tried it at the Scrimage we attend- We have always gone with adults. I am one of the coaches.

There are several factors that we have looked at. In some cases it was the students that didn't feel comfortable "commanding" their peers. In some cases it was the drive team that wanted the adult, In other cases we didn't feel the focus, game knowledge, and field presence was not there.

I can tell you this, I have worked cooperatively with student coaches and have been impressed with many of them. I have never loomed my will over the allience. We discuss different strategies, and based on other successes, and the capabilities of the robots, we try to come to a concensis.

This year hasn't shown this yet, but often people didn't follow the strategy no mater what was decided. So If you feel pressured, there's always that out, just don't get a reputation of not being a team player. My goal is to keep the team focused on the task and follow the strategy.

[Koko Ed]

Do you have an adult coach or a student coach? Student. Her name is Rosie.
Why? The X-Cats have always beleived that it is more important to have the learning experience given to the students than have an adult out there just because we wantthe trophy. We are not just driven by our trophy case but by our misson to inspire.
Do you feel it increases your ranking, winning, and success in matches?We got kids who have a good head on their shoulders who handle themselves well and work well with others. So it has helped.
you feel it enhances your team as a whole? Oh most definately.
ou feel it enhances the accuracy, precision, and speed in driving and operation? Actually yes. Our drives teams are close cohesive units (you know what kids call friends) and the coach will take suggestions from the drive team instead of an adult having absolute rule over the student.
What Downsides are there? Well inexperience obviously. Plus kids can be deferred by a "type A adult" who imposes their will upon them even if they have a better perspective how to handle the match.

[GaryVoshol]

We have an adult coach, but our primary strategist is our student driver.

There are some adult coaches who are very dynamic, to the point of sometimes being overbearing and bossy. This can have an effect on not only a student strategist, but also on other adult coaches. If the problem is a bossy alliance partner, it really doesn't matter who they are bossing around.

When encountering such a personality type, you must respond in a polite but firm manner. Listen to what they say, evaluate, and make suggestions. "I like this, but what if ..." A coach who doesn't listen to others on the alliance isn't working in partnership, but dictatorship. Some will never change; others will change if handled gently.

[Swan217]

The students get to build the robot, drive the robot, and be human players. You gotta let the mentors have some of the fun.

Seriously, I'm quite biased because I have known some great mentor coaches. I don't disagree with having students as coaches as well, and I don't doubt that student coaches can do just as well as or better than adult coaches. I think it's a team-by-team decision. The student coaches do need to learn to be just as assertive as the mentor coaches though.

[Kevin Kolodziej]

This very debate came up on our team in the hotel on Friday night. We ran both students and adults as coaches in Cleveland and plan to run only students in Milwaukee.

I have coached for the last three years and stepped down this year (though I did go out for 2 matches) so that others, preferably students, can have the experience. Even though I was the only one out of 5 coaches that has had any FIRST coaching experience, all 5 coaches did well.

If a student goes into a pre-match meeting with a game plan in mind and strategy suggestions, there is no reason they should be ignored. As a coach, I never turned away an idea just because it came from a student coach. Anyone who does is NOT acting in the spirit of FIRST.

There is one example that was brought up at our meeting, however, that makes sense. All sports out there are coached by an older, experienced adult. FIRST is a sporting event, so should coaches also be older? Do adult mentors take away from the experience? No, I don't think so. To be honest, I've met a few coaches out there that can act less mature than student coaches.

Kev

[Steve W]

Our team uses a adult mentor who is also an alumni. Why? Because he is good. He has a great rapport with the students and works well with them. He has worked with the strategy team that also has alumni working with the students. We find that it is a win win situation. Our team does well, we have a great scouting group who helps the strategy guys who tell the drive team the best strategy, who then implement what they have been told.

Again in FIRST we try to teach mentorship and team work. It doesn't matter if it is your team or alliance. I find in very concerning that teams say we are going to do it our way and that's that. I know that I have heard our drive team say that a team was to take care of something and then just did what they wanted to do. This really affects team balance in a match. It also affects who is chosen during pickings. I know that in the past we ranked some team high but did not pick them as they were a rogue team and would not follow team strategy.

Are students better coaches? Sometimes. Are adults better? Sometimes. Are college students better? Sometimes. A team should be choosing on the abilities of the person and how they can add to the team, not because of their age. This goes for all areas, not just coaching.

BTW - You will never see me coaching as I know that I don't have the skill sets.

[Not2B]

Do you have an adult coach or a student coach? Both, but if we can we put a student out there.

Do you feel it increases your ranking, winning, and success in matches? Doesn't make any difference as far as we can tell.

Do you feel it enhances your team as a whole? No difference.

Do you feel it enhances the accuracy, precision, and speed in driving and operation? Nope - the driver does the traditional coach job of coaching. The coach is used to collect and distribute information from the field and to/from the other coaches. Our coach is a fancy organic switchboard, not a decision making device.

What downsides are there? Doesn't seem to matter.

And if you have a student coach, please answer the additional question:
Do you feel intimidated or persuaded by adult coaches on your alliance? - Don't think it matters. We aren't out there to win at all costs, and even our adult coaches get intimidated by other coaches. But our superior scouting has really eliminated that - we don't just report back on the op-force, but we also know exactly how our partners have been doing, and if they are making stuff up.

[JAH]

Team 234, as far as I know, always has had an adult coach. I'm not sure it increases our winning or rank but it is beneficial to have an older person there during 'battle'. It helps our drivers keep calm and it's good to have someone older making the critical decisions during matches so the stress doesn't come back to the students as much. It may advance our accuracy and precision in driving but we really use an adult mentor as our coach to ease the nerves of the student drivers and have mentoring in action.