Pinning? Apparently I just don't seem to understand

[Dillon Compton]

It seems to me that one cannot be "pinned" against the front of the ramp... It is an open surface on which a robot can drive- perhaps a team neglected to design their robot with the ability to climb the ramp, but that does not call for a rule-change for their team in such a situation.

If it was against the SIDE of the ramp which creates a clear barrier over which movement is impossible, I would understand the confusion with the rule.

As I understand the situation now, it was clearly possible for a robot to drive up the ramp and avoid being pinned.

I agree with the refs on this one.

-Dillon Compton
team 1394

[The Lucas]

Originally Posted by Brindza

40 SECONDS

IN THE THIRD GAME OF THE SEMIFINAL MATCH AT THE PITTSBURG REGIONAL.

I literally had a front row seat for this occurrence (front row of padded chairs right along the red ramp in question) so here is how I saw it:

Redabot spun 888 around so that its shooter was not facing the goal. Then Redabot pushes 888 against red ramp then backs off slightly so that 888's 4 wheels (2 drive, 2 caster) are on the carpet and 888 is not simultaneously making contact with Redabot and the ramp. 888's drive wheels were closest to Redabot and their casters were closest to the ramp. This wheel configuration along with their bumpers made it such that 888 could drive back and forth but not up the ramp or turn 90 degrees.

Later, one of the refs started a pinning count presumably after realizing 888 could move but could not get out of this situation. I would estimate over half the bots could have gotten out of that situation by driving up the ramp or turning. Redabot backed off immediately, but later pushed 888 up the ramp to score the points that would tie that match.

I am interested to hear how refs like Stu would interpret this situation since there is no simultaneous contact between the bots and ramp, which is a easily escapable situation for many robots.

[coldabert]

Allow me to give you guys some more information to consider:
Earlier in the match, we were intentionally rammed by another bot while setting near the ramp. They rammed us so hard that it bent the 1/8 inch plate that our front-left caster was mounted to. This disabled our robot from being able to climb the ramp without another robot pushing us. Once, the opposing alliance realized that we could not climb the ramp, they pinned us against a ramp that we could never have climbed (and by "pinned" i mean positioned their robot so that we could not move away from our position, and we were making contact with them when we tried to drive away from them. And... there is no specification in the rules about how close or far away from robot you must be to pin them. ).

[chrisinmd]

I happened to be standing behind the alliance station during this match, and I witnessed our driver, Brindza, repeatedly trying to drive forward and backwards, to no avail. In my opinion, when your robot cannot move, this is a pin.

[KenWittlief]

being held against a field object (pinned) with the other robot continuously holding you there

and being cornered in a spot that you cannot get out of (by pushing the other robot out of your way)

are not the same thing.

If a robot is blocking your path, but not touching you, then you are not pinned.

[DjAlamose]

Pinning on the ramp is acceptable. I don’t have a rule to quote right now but ill work on finding it. A robot can pin another robot on the ramp for any duration of the match. Whether it’s on the top or the sides, I don't know if that makes a difference. Again I will look for the rule unless someone else posts it.

[KenWittlief]

Originally Posted by DjAlamose

Pinning on the ramp is acceptable..

only as long as neither robot is on the carpet. In the case in question one robot had been pushed up on the ramp while the other was still on the carpet.

[Stu Bloom]

Originally Posted by coldabert

Allow me to give you guys some more information to consider:
Earlier in the match, we were intentionally rammed by another bot while setting near the ramp. They rammed us so hard that it bent the 1/8 inch plate that our front-left caster was mounted to. This disabled our robot from being able to climb the ramp without another robot pushing us. Once, the opposing alliance realized that we could not climb the ramp, they pinned us against a ramp that we could never have climbed (and by "pinned" i mean positioned their robot so that we could not move away from our position, and we were making contact with them when we tried to drive away from them. And... there is no specification in the rules about how far away from robot you must be to pin them. After all, the molecules of each robot are never really being held against each other).


The purpose of the pin rule is to prevent an alliance from scoring a point and then completely stopping the opposing alliance from having any oppurtunity to defend or score.

<-the only smily i have used in 3 years

First of all " Bogus refs" was completely in-appropriate. I think you chose a very bad time to use "the only smiley I have used in three years".

Let's move on to your issues:

As I have said many times, and will continue to repeat: PLEASE read the rules ...

Intentional ramming is EXPLICITLY allowed in the rules this year with one exception. Refer to <G22> (emphasis added):

• Rule <R35> in Section 5.3.4 establishes ROBOT BUMPER ZONEs. Any contact within this zone is generally acceptable, with the exception of high speed long distance ramming...

I suspect they were trying to disrupt your scoring capability. It is clear to me that this type of play is intended and perhaps even encouraged this year. I have developed this opinion based on the following:

• The explicit statement that any bumper zone contact is acceptable in the rule quote above.
• Then you have the required 40 second period where each alliance is required to play "defense".
• And last, but certainly not least, is the incentive of additional size and weight allowance to add bumpers to your robot.

If your team read the rules and did not plan and design a robot for this type of game (using bumpers AND a robust design - 1/8" aluminum sheet is not very strong) then I think you made an error in judgment.

Regarding the pinning rule, I am curious as to how you have inside information regarding the "purpose of the pin rule". Are you on the Game Design Committee?

As i mentioned in an earlier post, this rule/issue WILL be discussed amongst the head referees before next weekend, but please know that it already has been discussed at length and the consensus is that pinning means pinning ... it is really pretty simple (from dictionary.com: "To hold fast; immobilize: The passenger was pinned under the wreckage of the truck)".
edit Additionally, I just realized that the rule actually contains a relevant definition - quoted: "inhibit the movement of another ROBOT while in contact with a field element or border". As you described the incident it sounds like you had to move away from the ramp to make contact with the "pinning" robot - clearly not within the "FIRST" definition./edit
If you are PINNED AGAINST a field element such that you are unable to move away then the 10 second pinning count will be started. It IS LEGAL to pin for 10 seconds - the penalty is only imposed if the offending robot does not back away after 10 seconds. If you don't understand this then please re-read the rule very carefully, deciphering one word at a time if necessary.

Originally Posted by DjAlamose

Pinning on the ramp is acceptable. I don’t have a rule to quote right now but ill work on finding it. A robot can pin another robot on the ramp for any duration of the match. Whether it’s on the top or the sides, I don't know if that makes a difference. Again I will look for the rule unless someone else posts it.

Rule quoted in post 15 of this thread by Wetzel - Thanks Wetzel!

Originally Posted by KenWittlief

only as long as neither robot is on the carpet. In the case in question one robot had been pushed up on the ramp while the other was still on the carpet.

Sorry Ken ... not correct. Per <G24>:

...This rule does not apply if either ROBOT is entirely on an ALLIANCE PLATFORM...

[Brindza]

Originally Posted by The Lucas

I literally had a front row seat for this occurrence (front row of padded chairs right along the red ramp in question) so here is how I saw it:

Redabot spun 888 around so that its shooter was not facing the goal. Then Redabot pushes 888 against red ramp then backs off slightly so that 888's 4 wheels (2 drive, 2 caster) are on the carpet and 888 is not simultaneously making contact with Redabot and the ramp. 888's drive wheels were closest to Redabot and their casters were closest to the ramp. This wheel configuration along with their bumpers made it such that 888 could drive back and forth but not up the ramp or turn 90 degrees.

Later, one of the refs started a pinning count presumably after realizing 888 could move but could not get out of this situation. I would estimate over half the bots could have gotten out of that situation by driving up the ramp or turning. Redabot backed off immediately, but later pushed 888 up the ramp to score the points that would tie that match.

I am interested to hear how refs like Stu would interpret this situation since there is no simultaneous contact between the bots and ramp, which is a easily escapable situation for many robots.

I am not sure where you were sitting but obvisouly you had a bad "angle". I am whatching the videotape as i write this post and i can give you a play by play account.

We were fighting for position in front of the high goal with team 1370, when they pushed our robot halfway up the ramp to keep us from shooting(completely legit and a good defensive call on thier part.) However, the force up the ramp caused our already strained casters from the previous matches to finally bend so that our robot could no longer make it up the ramp by ourselves. As our robot rolled back down the ramp, team 1370's robot backed up in front of ours so that they blocked us from moving after our robot was completely on the carpet. Team 1370's robot was sideways, perpindicular to the back of our robot. So i dont no how they backed up a little as you said. 1370 proceeded to leave their robot there when they realized that we could neither get up the ramp or push them off or turn.

After about 15 seconds of spinning our wheels desperately trying to free our robot the ref comes over to begin the count, relieving ourselves since we believed that they would be charged a penalty(it would be at least 20 points by that time). Since we believed that they were going to recieve a penalty and compensate for the time that was taken away from us to shoot i did not ask our allaince partners to push 1370 off our robot. Then abruptly the ref stopped the count and just watched as we could not move for another 20 seconds.

Afterwards, when we reviewed the video, our robot was completely pinned for a continuous 42 seconds.



and again i am uploading the video to this computer now so in time you will be able to see for yourselfs and have a first hand account.

[KenWittlief]

if 1370 was sideways and your bot rolled down the ramp into their bot, then they are not pinning you, they are blocking your path.

Unfortunately your bot was damaged and unable to climb the ramp to go around.

There is nothing in the rules that says you have to get out of a damaged robots path and allow them to go where they want to.

[KenWittlief]

Originally Posted by Stu Bloom

Sorry Ken ... not correct. Per <G24>:

Stu is right - I read the "While on the carpeted field surface, a ROBOT cannot pin..." part and thought that was the defining requirement.

[Eugenia Gabrielov]

Please post this video instead of arguing and referencing it.

There are so many versions of this match floating around, and so many possible rule interpretations, that this thread is fairly useless until you can justify your anger with visual evidence.

Please continue attempts to be civil.

- Genia

[Ryan Foley]

Originally Posted by Dillon Compton

It seems to me that one cannot be "pinned" against the front of the ramp... It is an open surface on which a robot can drive- perhaps a team neglected to design their robot with the ability to climb the ramp, but that does not call for a rule-change for their team in such a situation.

As I understand the situation now, it was clearly possible for a robot to drive up the ramp and avoid being pinned.

-Dillon Compton
team 1394

What if the robot was turned sideways? If it's wheels were parallel to the ramp, the steep angle of the ramp could possibly keep the robot from being pushed up the ramp and they certainly couldn't just drive up it, since they are oriented the wrong way. If the pinning robot had enough pushing power, it could possibly be able to prevent the pinned robot from moving side to side.

[Brindza]

Originally Posted by KenWittlief

if 1370 was sideways and your bot rolled down the ramp into their bot, then they are not pinning you, they are blocking your path.

Unfortunately your bot was damaged and unable to climb the ramp to go around.

There is nothing in the rules that says you have to get out of a damaged robots path and allow them to go where they want to.

when you see the video you will notice that 1370 intentionally backed thier robot up to block our path as we attemped to get away. Pinning is refered to as inhibiting the movement of another robot and i belive that they did just that.


Also, i cant believe that some of you people are considering it wasnt a pin because we could have designed our robot to go up the ramp or be strong enough to push the other robot off. If that is the case then there is no need for the pin rule at all. No matter how you get pinned there will always have been some design for your robot that would have allowed you to get out.

[Rick TYler]

Originally Posted by thesse

In the immortal words of coldabert "Prepare to be amazed. Soon a video will be posted to this forum that will shock and awe you. Stay tuned to see this ground-breaking demonstration of the power of Team 888." This video will clarify exactly how team 888 was robbed of their victory at Pittsburgh.

We have photos of two of our alliance robots sitting on the top of the platform at the end of a match. We also have video of a shot going through the center goal during autonomous in that same match. There were no penalties. We were awarded a total of six points for the match, including zero for autonomous. After protest, the referee added five points to our score. May I suggest that similar things happen several times per regional and that you should just get over it?