Adult vs. Student coaches

[Ian Curtis]

Do you have an adult coach or a student coach?
Student

Why?
First off, the mentors won't do it, and have the students pick one. When we use adults as coaches at BattleCry last year, our they didn't suggest anything, and just looked at the student drive team and said "Ask Them".

Do you feel it increases your ranking, winning, and success in matches?
I'm rather biased as I fill that position, but I say it doesn't matter, providing you pick the best person for the job.

Do you feel it enhances your team as a whole?
I guess... Makes the driveteam a far more cohesive group.

Do you feel it enhances the accuracy, precision, and speed in driving and operation?
Yes, but I'm biased.

What downsides are there? None, providing your student coach is smart and assertive enough. In every alliance teams should at some level defer to the best robot. If I'm on an alliance with a really good team, I don't wanna be the one calling the alliance shots, but I'd hope that they take into account what my team wants to accomplish and what my robot is capable off.

[indieFan]

Originally Posted by sanddrag

We have always believed in having a student coach and we have always had a pretty good student coach. When we get paired up into alliances, often teams will over-sell themselves and leave us with inferior performance on the field. Many times we get screwed over for follwing their strategy instead of our own. Sometimes, we folllow their strategy because they have an adult coach, and our student coach is in no position to argue with an adult coach. I think FIRST should make a rule one way or the other and not allow either one. I speculate that there is some unfairness that comes about from having adult coaches as opposed to student coaches. I know every team has the right to an adult coach but every team has a different philosophy on what and how their students should learn.

I completely disagree with you here. To say that a student coach is in no position to argue with an adult coach is to: 1) Minimize the minds and/or abilities that the students have and 2) feed into the mentality that adults know everything - something that we all know is a major fallacy.

It took me 4 years to start voicing my opinion to a professor who's mentored the same teams the same amount of time I have. Before I simply took his word because he was a professor and knew more than I did. Now I want an explanation or I'm going to say that I'm going to go in the direction I want.

As for my first point, in 2001 we had a student who was great at strategy. He took whiteboards with him to the strategy meetings with the other teams and the adults were listening to him. It's simply a question of how prepared are the students to make their points. IMNSHO, the adults that do not listen to the students are simply there to win. I would like to believe that the adults that are there not simply to win treat the competition like they do the build season - listen to the students opinions and guide them if it's required. Perhaps some of the adult coaches (per Sanddrag's original definition) can tell how they operate during the strategy meetings with their alliance partners.

I better get back to work,
indieFan

[Dan Richardson]

Originally Posted by abeD

This year my team 710 decided on the coaching role at the last minute. I ended up being the coach for serveral reasons.

1. This is my 6th year doing first as well as driving the robot in 2 of them.
2. My brother was the base driver for the bot and we communicate well, we also had another student driving as well and we had the same results.
3. We tried it in practice matches and we worked well together, the students responded well to my instructions and strategy decisions.

I think the number one most important thing for a coach is experience. Sometimes reactions on the field have to be instinctive and these instincts are developed over time. This is a large reason why mentors are usually adults who have been doing FIRST for a while.

I agree with abe, our coach ( George 1902 ) has been in FIRST for 9 years and experience really pays off. You have a general understanding how complicated the game will be before hand, and a good concept of how it should be played. Plus its the only place mentors get to be on the field. Inspiring students is one thing, inspiring the adults to stay on and be with the team for a while is another lol. Its good to have someone who can be calm and collected on the field. Its always good to let the mentors have some fun too, atleast I've almost always felt that way. Then again it always depends on how your team is set up.

[Daniel Morse]

Team 213 has an adult coach at the regional competitions and a student coach at the invitationals. Our regional coach is the team advisor and is our school's freshmen football coach. He is very good at seeing where everyone is on the field and knowing where to go next. His decisiveness has helped our team win many matches. During invitationals, students can get a chance to coach in order to learn how it is done. The system works well for us.

[Nate Edwards]

I became our teams coach this year after the past few years alternating students and adults as coaches. We seem to have found the middle by having the college student, because the students can listen to them better because of a smaller age difference, but they are an adult and thus can keep cool under the pressure. We have a lead strategy student who meets with the other student drive teams to figure out the strategy and i just put it to work.

[pi_guy578]

Do you have an adult coach or a student coach?
I am the coach for our drive team, and I am a student.

Why?
Because, we decided that our entire team is to be run by students not adults. Mentors are only there for safety and guidance when it is required.

Do you feel it increases your ranking, winning, and success in matches?
Last I checked, FIRST wasn't about winning or losing, just inspiring science and technology, so we don't keep track. Otherwise we placed 5th in the qualifiers at FLR, entirely with student coaching.

Do you feel it enhances your team as a whole?
Most definitely. Every member of our team feels good that they are contributing the most to the team, and not the mentors. We see a lot of teams where all the adults are doing the work, and students are just watching from the side. We prefer losing with a student run team, then winning with a mentor run one.

Do you feel it enhances the accuracy, precision, and speed in driving and operation?
I don't think there is a difference. The game is a relatively simple concept, every member of the drive team understands it well, and there is very little chance that an adult coach would understand the game better than a student one would. Also the drivers seem to bond a lot better when they are working with one of their peers rather than one of their mentors. This allows them all to be on the same page, and to think as one.

What downsides are there?
We haven't run into any.

Do you feel intimidated or persuaded by adult coaches on your alliance?
Never. I make sure that they don't push me around. We know what our robot is capable of, and how to play to our strengths. If anyone tries to force a plan on us that does not work with our strengths, I let them know. But, if they have a plan that I agree with, and works well with our robot's strength, I have no problem going with it.

[Eugenia Gabrielov]

Do you have an adult coach or a student coach? Our coach this year is an engineer who was a mentor on the team, and who participated on a FIRST team in high school. I do not know if he had drive team experience. Our coach last year was a college student, and the year before.

Why? Just like choosing an able-bodied driver is a very important process, choosing a coach is equally important. A good coach has spent lots of time in the shop over the course of the build season, and has thus formed bonds with the other "live-ins" who become drivers. This year, our coach Joe was a crucial advisor and became coach due to his excellent ability to be decisive and his good understanding of the game, among other things. He gets along very well with students, so the age gap (not that big in the first place) isn't a huge deal.

Do you feel it increases your ranking, winning, and success in matches?
I don't think the age of a coach has that much bearing. It's the ability that counts.

Do you feel it enhances your team as a whole?
There's a bond within the drive team that is very noticeable - our coach not being of high school age doesn't change that bond. He's a good guy with an interesting personality - so yes, a get-along-well drive team enhances team performance and attitude.

What downsides are there?
I don't think there are downsides. The only downside I can see with a college student mentor is the common coincedence of semester exams and Championship dates.

[slickguy2007]

Our team keeps entirely all kids on the field, this includes the coach (me). Whenever I discuss match strategy, I always look at the facts rather than who I am talking with. If I don't agree with something out ally says, I will make my voice heard. It does not matter how old the coach is. My team trusts me to make the best decisions in order for our team to perform well. I will never take a back seat in the discussion. Often, I try to lead the discussion when our 3 teams join together to talk strategy and I try to make sure that everyone is heard. That is how our team operates for field strategy, and it seems to be working well .


GO 1403!!!

[Shu Song]

Do you have an adult coach or a student coach?
We had a student coach through qualifications at FLR, and I (college mentor) took over for eliminations.

Why?
I was coach for the team last year. People thought that I was very effective (trying to be as modest as possible, just what I hear). When I came back to mentor to team this year, I told myself that I would not become coach again, and let a student do it. And through qualifications, a student did do the coaching and I was on the sidelines. I noticed that this student wasn't really strategizing before the match, and I was giving him the basic strategy for the match. He wasn't adapting enough during the match to counter our opponent's strategies. So I asked to be put in for elimination matches. Afterwards, I asked for people's opinions and they didn't seem to mind my coaching.

I'm still not convinced that my stepping in was the right move. No doubt that it made me feel special and I would loved to get back behind the driver station. However, in the spirit of the FIRST, I just couldn't see my replacing the existing coach being the right move.

Do you feel it increases your ranking, winning, and success in matches?
I can't really conclude that, since we were eliminated during quarterfinals with a sweep and the student coach held a 6-6 record through qualifying. But IMHO, I think that I was more effective. But this doesn't conclude either way about non-students being better coaches, I just have more experience.

Do you feel it enhances your team as a whole?
Absolutely not. Since two years ago, our team set the precedent that only students will be coaches. I wanted it to stay that way, but apparently the need to win supercedes enhancement of one's team.

Do you feel it enhances the accuracy, precision, and speed in driving and operation?
As I said before, I can't conclude that because I only have such a small base of comparison. Last year, me and the same student coach from this year were switching off during qualifying matches. My drive team was the more effective one, but then I was a student and so was he. So any accuracy, precision, and speed in driving seen during the two matches I coach really has nothing to do with the fact that I'm a college student.

What downsides are there?
Only downside I foresee is that I'm not giving other people a chance to fill this position, but when I stepped in, it was way too late to train another coach, so I was last resort. I hope to run this by my team again and see if they have any problems with college mentors as coaches.

Do you feel intimidated or persuaded by adult coaches on your alliance?
I can't recall a time when I've coached with an overbearing adult mentor. The adult coaches have always been open to the ideas of the other alliance coaches. Though what was said before about adult mentors dramatically overrating the effectiveness of their own robots happens quite often. They generally aren't the coaches for the drive teams, but they are there when drivers meeting to discuss strategy. That's why we always have our own scouting data, which is substantially less biased than their coaches.


Bottom line is that I don't really see any difference in students and adult coaches. I tend to lean towards student coaches because it gets them more involved.

[hoag]

Do you have an adult coach or a student coach? Students - Myself and another student. (We switch)
Why? It creates better communication between the drivers, coach, and human player. We all know each other and know the game.
Do you feel it increases your ranking, winning, and success in matches? Oh yes, we won the Buckeye Regional.
Do you feel it enhances your team as a whole? Yes, we have the ability to relate to the entire team of students.
Do you feel it enhances the accuracy, precision, and speed in driving and operation? Yes, I believe that the students know the robot better than anyone.
What downsides are there? Not really any.

[NMR]

Our team has a student coach (me). I am very often ignored by adult coaches that think that their strategy is the ultimate strategy that must be followed. It saddens me. How do I get over it? "Can I speak with your drivers please?"

There have been less problems between adults and me this year, I look like I'm 21 even though I'm only 16. People try to talk to my drivers instead of me because they think I'm older.

Whenever I have a problem with an adult coach not listening, and there is no driver available to talk to, I call in my 6'5" teacher advisor to talk strat while I watch. He scares people, just ask any of his students .

[379Robocat]

We have an adult coach. I on the other hand after being on the team for four years and a collegiate advisor for two years feel that I should be able to coach. Some of the other advisors agree with me and some disagree. I feel that being in a drivers point of view for four years, I know what it's like to have an adult behind you yelling at you and telling you what to do. Also being on the team as a student allowed me to communicate with my teammates on a one to one level instead of a student adult level. I feel that students that were on the team and back to mentor should be allowed to coach the students because of the experience they've had and they know the students better.

[Eugenia Gabrielov]

Allow me to play devil's advocate for just a moment. This post doesn't reflect my personal opinion, but just consider it.

Think about those overbearing adults. Why are they overbearing? Is it fully them being overconfident in their robot's ability, or do you think maybe they're tired of students who think they know everything going into a match over confident and trying to win with something silly? Do you think maybe they've had maturity issues on their own team with students so they don't want to see that affect the alliance?

Maybe lots of drivers and strat coaches are too cocky. I'm sure every team has had a couple cocky drivers/coaches - they have talent, just very overconfident.

Just a point to consider.

[StephLee]

Do you have an adult coach or a student coach?
We've had a student coach (me) both years we've been a team.

Why?
I was always standing with the drivers during our practices at home, and I knew the rules best, so the mentors decided to make my position official by making me coach. Plus our mentors feel the drive team should be entirely students.

Do you feel it increases your ranking, winning, and success in matches?
I really don't know. That involves so many factors and I really couldn't analyze them enough to know for sure.

Do you feel it enhances your team as a whole?
Definitely. Students are more comfortable talking to other students most of the time, so if one of our team members has a concern or an idea, they don't feel like they can't approach me to discuss it. Plus, the drivers feel like they can be more frank with me than they could with an adult, which really helps with communication within the drive team.

Do you feel it enhances the accuracy, precision, and speed in driving and operation?
The driving is up to the drivers. I'm there to communicate with the other teams and to plan strategy beforehand. I help them keep track of time and what mode we should be in, but any coach, student or adult, could do that.

What downsides are there?
Being a student coach has few downsides except when it comes to coaches who don't want to listen to your ideas and come up with a mutually beneficial strategy. Whether or not they mean to, some coaches automatically try to take charge when the other coach is a student. So long as the mentors are willing to work together (which the majority of adult and student coaches alike are) and the student coach is assertive enough to speak up, there should not be any problems.

Being a sophomore and having coached for two years (as anyone at Pittsburgh during the finals or awards ceremony will know, thanks to Wayne ), I think it's a great experience for the student if there is a student competent enough to handle it - or willing to become competent enough. I was really shy last year, but being thrown into the coaching position as a freshman on a rookie team was the best way I could have ever asked for to break my shyness. I'm much more outgoing and assertive now, because of coaching. However, if no students step forward, I don't see anything wrong with having an adult coach.

[379Robocat]

StephLee you are absolutely correct in your post. I couldn't have said it any better. The robot functioning is up to the drivers. You as a mentor are there to guide them in the right direction. As for when you said that it is easier communicating with other students then adults, you are correct. My team tends to approach me more when they need to talk then go to an adult. I was on the team as a student/driver for 4 years then a mentor/advisor for 2 years and i feel that I am able to talk to them in a way that they understand. If adults on other teams could see that we as younger adults are just as capable of comming up with the same ideas and strategies and listen to each other then things would be better.