GP, Ramming, and Practice

[Freddy Schurr]

I agree with Lil Lavery and there should be no ramming during pratice matches. Yes, I totally agree that it is not fair and not showing GP.

[Metalcrafters]

I would like to add that all of this is for "FUN" "SERIOUS" " "COMPETITION” and some seem to forget that all the teams put countless hours of work into their bot to COMPETE, each of us holding great personal pride in our creations. (For most of us this is FUN and SERIOUS)

Now for the COMPETITION side of things! "FUN" & "SERIOUS"

I don't think anyone will argue the value developing a strategy that brings out our bots abilities is important to refine. When it comes to competition we all push hard and strive to be the best. That is what it is all about. Excitement! (FUN) Gracious Professionalism

GP (SERIOUS) is key for all to enjoy this side of competition! Ramming during practice or even during the FINALS and playing defense are two different things that accomplish two different goals. Both give you a REPUTIATION…Good or BAD

All I suggest that once a bot is down (tipped over, disabled...) it accomplishes nothing by ramming it. Defense is great but broken bots make for empty spots on the field…

We learned first hand what it feels like to be rammed continuously while being down. It hurts. Not the bot but our pride. We can fix anything and get back out on the field, but fixing a REPUTATION takes longer both on and off the field!

I wish All Teams the best in the continuous game of LIFE

[The Lucas]

During the first 20 sec of a practice match last year, a robot rammed us while we were disabled in the human player loading station. It ripped a tread off our bot and we were unable to continue the practice match. After the match, the referees talked to their drivers. I applaud the refs for communicating that this behavior is unacceptable and would garner penalties (30+ pts) in a real match. I encourage other refs to provide similar feedback based on practice matches.

[devicenull]

Some defense is needed during the practice matches.. oUr robot works perfectly in the shop, we make 9/10 shots. We got on the field, and even the slightest pushing was throwing our accuracy off. I'd rather find out about this on Thursday, when we can refine our strategy to deal with it, then on Friday or Saturday, when the matches actually count.

Ramming shouldn't be done Thursday, but if you are getting pushed around, then the other team is probably helping you figure out what you need to do to counter it.

[Jaine Perotti]

Reading through the above posts, I agree with many of the points being made from both sides. However, I do want to bring up a few points, coming from the point of view of a historically "defensive" team:

1) Robots playing defense need time to practice too. Good defensive driving requires just as much finesse and practice as does offensive driving/operating.

2) Robots playing offense do need to take defensive play into consideration when practicing. These drivers/operators need to have practice responding to defensive play, which will certainly occur during official matches.

However, the exceptions to the aforementioned points are as follows:

1) If a defensive robot wants to practice their defensive play during a practice match, they should notify the opposing alliance to make sure that they are prepared and willing to take defensive play against them. They should leave offensive robots alone if the team says that they wish to practice without defense in order to get their basic systems up and running.

2) Robots playing offense, who need to get their basic systems up and running (i.e. a robot that was not yet finished upon shipment, and needed to be tested) or are trying to debug, should not have to be faced with defensive play. Therefore, it is their responsibility to ask the opposing alliance not to play defense against them.

If you felt that your robot was being unfairly targeted by defensive play during a practice match, next time, talk to the other alliance about letting you have a chance to debug.

While I do believe it is appropriate for robots to practice their defensive maneuvers, I don't think it is appropriate when it prevents another team from debugging. But after an offensive robot is up and running without defensive interference, I think it would be wise for them to try practicing with defensive interference. That way, they can develop their own methods of repositioning and maneuvering so as to minimize the effect that defense may have on them. It is just as important for them to practice avoiding defensive interference as it is for them to practice shooting balls in the goal without intrusion.


-- Jaine

[Jaine Perotti]

I agree with Lil Lavery and there should be no ramming during pratice matches. Yes, I totally agree that it is not fair and not showing GP.

I always hate picking on individual people by quoting them, but I wanted to mention that I think the term "GP" and "gracious professionalism" are thrown around much to frequently on the forums. I don't think it is ever healthy to take black and white stances - making broad generalizations over a fairly complex subject. Labeling a broad action - such as defense during practice rounds - as "unfair" or "un-gracious professionalism", can be dangerous.

What if a team playing defense against an offensive robot was unaware of the fact that the offensive robot wanted to be left alone so that it could debug its shooter? I wouldn't rush to label this as "un-GP" behavior. Rather, I would label this as being simply unaware of the situation. This is why I propose that alliances talk to each other about whether or not they should play defense during each practice round. That way, you can tell the opposing robot to leave you alone so that you can score.

Plus, I think there are times when it is appropriate to play defense during practice matches. If an offensive robot states that they would like to practice WITH defensive interference, it is perfectly GP if the defensive robot chooses to play defense against them. If there were a rule stating "ALL DEFENSE DURING PRACTICE MATCHES IS BAD" then many teams would be deprived of much needed practice.

So again, I am stating that there are times when it is appropriate, and times when it is not appropriate.

Broad generalizations are not good representations of reality.

-- Jaine

[Andrew Blair]

ehhem... Excuse me while I take my soapbox...


Practice day's exist to give all teams a taste of competition. They do not exist soley as a refinment and calibration period, though some teams may choose to use them as such. There are also no restrictions on gameplay during these periods. Because they are not scored or recorded however, if you wish to be left alone during the period, it would make a lot of sense to talk to the teams playing, and tell them your intentions. I'm sure all teams would avoid you if you simply asked. However, a team that plays within all constraints of the game, even during a practice match, should not be persecuted or be looked down upon because they didn't use their time as you wanted them to.

Gracious professionalism is, when possible, being considerate towards your opponent. However, this does not include seeking your team out to see what you want to do. Not every team knows your shooter needs calibration entering a practice match.

Breaking Robots== Bad.

Playing Your Game==Good.

Just have to find the happy medium!

[Ken Leung]

Pushing or ramming of other robots during the practice round without their permission is simply unacceptable. Period. I don't care if you think they are ready, I don't care if you think playing tough is important in the game.

The bottom line is, you do not know the condition of the other robots on the field unless you talk to the other teams about it. Certain parts of the robots might still be being worked on, wires might be loose, batteries might not be tired down completely, parts might go flying if your robot hit them without warning, robots might not have been inspected at all.

Ask the other team if they want to play rough. Go ahead if they say yes. I don't really care what you do as long as both teams know what's happening.

The bottom line is, talk it through first. Don't make any assumption. I don't care what you think is fun, or important. Other people might not see it that way. Play rough during actual rounds when everyone expect it to happen.

[Tim566]

It would seem that everyone appears to agree with me on the fact that communication is key. Tell the other participants in the particular practice match your situation and I am sure they will understand.

[lukevanoort]

I know this will sound a little strange, but I like it when people play rough against us in a practice match. If a team smacks the upper part of the robot where the structure is weak or tips it, that's another matter, but I don't really mind people ramming us at moderately speeds (clearly not 7+) in a practice match. My logic is simple, I want them to reveal to us the weak parts. Then we have a good amount of time to fix them. The other option is to have them fail in an elimination, or qualifier where the stakes are much higher and you have less time to fix it. That said, if a team asked us to leave them alone, I would, at the very least for the first matchish thing.

[Kevin Sevcik]

I guess I'll be seconding Ken Leung for the first part of this post.

First, think of it from a safety standpoint. Robots need not be inspected before going out on the field on practice day. You literally have no idea what condition an opposing team's robot is in. For all you know, they've got a little bottle of nitroglycerin on the robot, waiting to explode when they get bumped. Basically, they know the limitations and physical condition of their robot. You have no idea. If you instigate actions that cause their robot to explode, it is entirely your fault. Entirely. Remember their robot could be a danger to itself, to other robots, or to the field and spectators.

Second, I've never seen the practice matches as simulating anything close to an actual match. Perhaps in a very very loose form. This is because I know most of the teams out their are fixing their robots or tuning systems. They're not really playing to win. If you actually think it's anything like a real match, you're fooling yourself. And yes, waaaaay back in the stone age (5 or so years ago), practice "matches" were, in fact, 10 whole minutes of free-form do whatever you like with your robot. There were students and coaches on the field examining robots working and resetting scoring items, etc. This has stopp because of safety issues, and because FIRST has introduced autonomous mode and various timing dependent elements of the matches. You can't have the full free-form style of practice with elements like that, but I don't really think the spirit of practice matches has changed much. To quote the rule book (which really should've been done a while ago):

7.5.1 Practice Rounds
Your registration envelope will contain a list of Thursday practice times and indicate on which field you will practice. Teams cannot switch practice times.
7.5.1.1 Time Slots
All teams will receive a list of all the practice times. Your team must be ready to practice at the designated times and on the specified fields. If your team/robot cannot be ready for your practice time slot, send in the human player only or forfeit the practice slot entirely. Your team members may want to scout other teams and their strategies.
7.5.1.2 Courtesy
In order to make the most of practice time, there will be a specified number of teams on a field during an assigned practice slot. Each team must be respectful of the other teams sharing the field. Friendly interaction between machines is acceptable if all teams are willing. Un-sportsman-like conduct on the part of a team during practice could result in loss of practice time.

Assume other teams are unwilling. If they're trying to avoid other robots and just shoot goals, they're probably unwilling. If they come after you first, they're probably willing, even if you're not. Note also that the rules call them practice times, not matches.

Finally, it's practice time. It's nice that defensive teams want to practice defense, but again, other teams want to practice other things. If you pin or flip over a robot in a practice round, that team has lost all that time. Apply the golden rule. Would you like it if someone arbitrarily declared that your practice round has been revoked? I assure you it will feel like that to some of those teams.

Upon futher discussion with my better half...

Originally Posted by Andrew Blair

However, a team that plays within all constraints of the game, even during a practice match, should not be persecuted or be looked down upon because they didn't use their time as you wanted them to.

The implication of this statement is that it is, instead, entirely within your rights to force them to use their time as you want them to. I would tend to err on the side of unselfishness.

[Andrew Blair]

Originally Posted by Kevin Sevcik

Upon futher discussion with my better half...
The implication of this statement is that it is, instead, entirely within your rights to force them to use their time as you want them to. I would tend to err on the side of unselfishness.

Well, I guess that's in need of some revision. Perhaps it would be better said:

"All teams possess the right to practice their strategy, and as such, must be respectful towards each side (Robot interaction vs. Independent tuning), so as not to compromise any team's ability to use their practice time more than anyone else"

That would create a situation in which teams defend to a small margin, while others tune to a small margin, a happy average.

I guess the point is that teams who defend should be most courteous, as they are interacting with others, but they should be, in no way unable to interact in such a way during practice matches if done carefully and respectively. Foremost, communication. And in no way, intent to destroy. That's something we're never supposed to do. Ever.

[GB330033]

As a member of a defensive-minded team who hasn't competed yet (We're going to Lone Star) I'm not sure how to comment. I really liked the earlier comment of having tags to designate bots as "non-contact" during practice. Going back to the football practice analogy made by someone earlier, this is similar to having your quarterback wear a red (or just off-color) jersey in practice. It's a signal to everyone "HEY! He's important and fragile! Don't hit him!" I don't think you can completely restrict defensive play in practice, because that's unfair to the defensive teams. However, as has been stated, you can't allow teams to run rampant and play full-on defense during practice, because that's unfair to the offensive teams.

All in all, let's get some tags to designate who's playing and who's not, and find some sort of happy-medium.

[koozman]

As a ref, I wouldn't mind if teams asked to be left alone...some teams might want to practice but not be manhandled. Tell the refs and we can inform the other team: like when you see in football practice, the QB has a special jersey on so that the defensive team doesn't touch him. I think the other teams would be gracious enough to leave them alone.