GP, Ramming, and Practice

[devicenull]

Some defense is needed during the practice matches.. oUr robot works perfectly in the shop, we make 9/10 shots. We got on the field, and even the slightest pushing was throwing our accuracy off. I'd rather find out about this on Thursday, when we can refine our strategy to deal with it, then on Friday or Saturday, when the matches actually count.

Ramming shouldn't be done Thursday, but if you are getting pushed around, then the other team is probably helping you figure out what you need to do to counter it.

[Jaine Perotti]

Reading through the above posts, I agree with many of the points being made from both sides. However, I do want to bring up a few points, coming from the point of view of a historically "defensive" team:

1) Robots playing defense need time to practice too. Good defensive driving requires just as much finesse and practice as does offensive driving/operating.

2) Robots playing offense do need to take defensive play into consideration when practicing. These drivers/operators need to have practice responding to defensive play, which will certainly occur during official matches.

However, the exceptions to the aforementioned points are as follows:

1) If a defensive robot wants to practice their defensive play during a practice match, they should notify the opposing alliance to make sure that they are prepared and willing to take defensive play against them. They should leave offensive robots alone if the team says that they wish to practice without defense in order to get their basic systems up and running.

2) Robots playing offense, who need to get their basic systems up and running (i.e. a robot that was not yet finished upon shipment, and needed to be tested) or are trying to debug, should not have to be faced with defensive play. Therefore, it is their responsibility to ask the opposing alliance not to play defense against them.

If you felt that your robot was being unfairly targeted by defensive play during a practice match, next time, talk to the other alliance about letting you have a chance to debug.

While I do believe it is appropriate for robots to practice their defensive maneuvers, I don't think it is appropriate when it prevents another team from debugging. But after an offensive robot is up and running without defensive interference, I think it would be wise for them to try practicing with defensive interference. That way, they can develop their own methods of repositioning and maneuvering so as to minimize the effect that defense may have on them. It is just as important for them to practice avoiding defensive interference as it is for them to practice shooting balls in the goal without intrusion.


-- Jaine

[Jaine Perotti]

I agree with Lil Lavery and there should be no ramming during pratice matches. Yes, I totally agree that it is not fair and not showing GP.

I always hate picking on individual people by quoting them, but I wanted to mention that I think the term "GP" and "gracious professionalism" are thrown around much to frequently on the forums. I don't think it is ever healthy to take black and white stances - making broad generalizations over a fairly complex subject. Labeling a broad action - such as defense during practice rounds - as "unfair" or "un-gracious professionalism", can be dangerous.

What if a team playing defense against an offensive robot was unaware of the fact that the offensive robot wanted to be left alone so that it could debug its shooter? I wouldn't rush to label this as "un-GP" behavior. Rather, I would label this as being simply unaware of the situation. This is why I propose that alliances talk to each other about whether or not they should play defense during each practice round. That way, you can tell the opposing robot to leave you alone so that you can score.

Plus, I think there are times when it is appropriate to play defense during practice matches. If an offensive robot states that they would like to practice WITH defensive interference, it is perfectly GP if the defensive robot chooses to play defense against them. If there were a rule stating "ALL DEFENSE DURING PRACTICE MATCHES IS BAD" then many teams would be deprived of much needed practice.

So again, I am stating that there are times when it is appropriate, and times when it is not appropriate.

Broad generalizations are not good representations of reality.

-- Jaine

[Andrew Blair]

ehhem... Excuse me while I take my soapbox...


Practice day's exist to give all teams a taste of competition. They do not exist soley as a refinment and calibration period, though some teams may choose to use them as such. There are also no restrictions on gameplay during these periods. Because they are not scored or recorded however, if you wish to be left alone during the period, it would make a lot of sense to talk to the teams playing, and tell them your intentions. I'm sure all teams would avoid you if you simply asked. However, a team that plays within all constraints of the game, even during a practice match, should not be persecuted or be looked down upon because they didn't use their time as you wanted them to.

Gracious professionalism is, when possible, being considerate towards your opponent. However, this does not include seeking your team out to see what you want to do. Not every team knows your shooter needs calibration entering a practice match.

Breaking Robots== Bad.

Playing Your Game==Good.

Just have to find the happy medium!

[Ken Leung]

Pushing or ramming of other robots during the practice round without their permission is simply unacceptable. Period. I don't care if you think they are ready, I don't care if you think playing tough is important in the game.

The bottom line is, you do not know the condition of the other robots on the field unless you talk to the other teams about it. Certain parts of the robots might still be being worked on, wires might be loose, batteries might not be tired down completely, parts might go flying if your robot hit them without warning, robots might not have been inspected at all.

Ask the other team if they want to play rough. Go ahead if they say yes. I don't really care what you do as long as both teams know what's happening.

The bottom line is, talk it through first. Don't make any assumption. I don't care what you think is fun, or important. Other people might not see it that way. Play rough during actual rounds when everyone expect it to happen.

[Tim566]

It would seem that everyone appears to agree with me on the fact that communication is key. Tell the other participants in the particular practice match your situation and I am sure they will understand.

[lukevanoort]

I know this will sound a little strange, but I like it when people play rough against us in a practice match. If a team smacks the upper part of the robot where the structure is weak or tips it, that's another matter, but I don't really mind people ramming us at moderately speeds (clearly not 7+) in a practice match. My logic is simple, I want them to reveal to us the weak parts. Then we have a good amount of time to fix them. The other option is to have them fail in an elimination, or qualifier where the stakes are much higher and you have less time to fix it. That said, if a team asked us to leave them alone, I would, at the very least for the first matchish thing.

[Kevin Sevcik]

I guess I'll be seconding Ken Leung for the first part of this post.

First, think of it from a safety standpoint. Robots need not be inspected before going out on the field on practice day. You literally have no idea what condition an opposing team's robot is in. For all you know, they've got a little bottle of nitroglycerin on the robot, waiting to explode when they get bumped. Basically, they know the limitations and physical condition of their robot. You have no idea. If you instigate actions that cause their robot to explode, it is entirely your fault. Entirely. Remember their robot could be a danger to itself, to other robots, or to the field and spectators.

Second, I've never seen the practice matches as simulating anything close to an actual match. Perhaps in a very very loose form. This is because I know most of the teams out their are fixing their robots or tuning systems. They're not really playing to win. If you actually think it's anything like a real match, you're fooling yourself. And yes, waaaaay back in the stone age (5 or so years ago), practice "matches" were, in fact, 10 whole minutes of free-form do whatever you like with your robot. There were students and coaches on the field examining robots working and resetting scoring items, etc. This has stopp because of safety issues, and because FIRST has introduced autonomous mode and various timing dependent elements of the matches. You can't have the full free-form style of practice with elements like that, but I don't really think the spirit of practice matches has changed much. To quote the rule book (which really should've been done a while ago):

7.5.1 Practice Rounds
Your registration envelope will contain a list of Thursday practice times and indicate on which field you will practice. Teams cannot switch practice times.
7.5.1.1 Time Slots
All teams will receive a list of all the practice times. Your team must be ready to practice at the designated times and on the specified fields. If your team/robot cannot be ready for your practice time slot, send in the human player only or forfeit the practice slot entirely. Your team members may want to scout other teams and their strategies.
7.5.1.2 Courtesy
In order to make the most of practice time, there will be a specified number of teams on a field during an assigned practice slot. Each team must be respectful of the other teams sharing the field. Friendly interaction between machines is acceptable if all teams are willing. Un-sportsman-like conduct on the part of a team during practice could result in loss of practice time.

Assume other teams are unwilling. If they're trying to avoid other robots and just shoot goals, they're probably unwilling. If they come after you first, they're probably willing, even if you're not. Note also that the rules call them practice times, not matches.

Finally, it's practice time. It's nice that defensive teams want to practice defense, but again, other teams want to practice other things. If you pin or flip over a robot in a practice round, that team has lost all that time. Apply the golden rule. Would you like it if someone arbitrarily declared that your practice round has been revoked? I assure you it will feel like that to some of those teams.

Upon futher discussion with my better half...

Originally Posted by Andrew Blair

However, a team that plays within all constraints of the game, even during a practice match, should not be persecuted or be looked down upon because they didn't use their time as you wanted them to.

The implication of this statement is that it is, instead, entirely within your rights to force them to use their time as you want them to. I would tend to err on the side of unselfishness.

[Andrew Blair]

Originally Posted by Kevin Sevcik

Upon futher discussion with my better half...
The implication of this statement is that it is, instead, entirely within your rights to force them to use their time as you want them to. I would tend to err on the side of unselfishness.

Well, I guess that's in need of some revision. Perhaps it would be better said:

"All teams possess the right to practice their strategy, and as such, must be respectful towards each side (Robot interaction vs. Independent tuning), so as not to compromise any team's ability to use their practice time more than anyone else"

That would create a situation in which teams defend to a small margin, while others tune to a small margin, a happy average.

I guess the point is that teams who defend should be most courteous, as they are interacting with others, but they should be, in no way unable to interact in such a way during practice matches if done carefully and respectively. Foremost, communication. And in no way, intent to destroy. That's something we're never supposed to do. Ever.

[GB330033]

As a member of a defensive-minded team who hasn't competed yet (We're going to Lone Star) I'm not sure how to comment. I really liked the earlier comment of having tags to designate bots as "non-contact" during practice. Going back to the football practice analogy made by someone earlier, this is similar to having your quarterback wear a red (or just off-color) jersey in practice. It's a signal to everyone "HEY! He's important and fragile! Don't hit him!" I don't think you can completely restrict defensive play in practice, because that's unfair to the defensive teams. However, as has been stated, you can't allow teams to run rampant and play full-on defense during practice, because that's unfair to the offensive teams.

All in all, let's get some tags to designate who's playing and who's not, and find some sort of happy-medium.

[Stuart]

well I personaly think that if you want to practice defence durring the poractice rounds . . its ok. just let the team your practicing on know whats going on and ask if they are ok with it . . they may have just gotten their robot working. . . would be akin to sucker punching a 10 year old in a wheel chair, just an't cool.

as far as tags I think thats a good idea . . I think well make some while were printing off all our sprit/marketing/scouting sheets.

[EricH]

I'll bring up a scenario that most certainly could happen--
Thursday afternoon: REDATEAM A has a really good defense bot. They need a little more practice, and it's their last match of three. BLUEATEAM A has the best shooter in FIRST. Period. It can beat any three other shooters, if it's working properly, calibrated, etc. REDATEAM A decides to practice on BLUEATEAM A, who just got onto the field for the first time. REDATEAM A beats up BLUEATEAM A, and in the process, damages the shooter and the BLUEATEAM A programmers can't see if their program even works or not.

Fast forward to Friday morning. REDATEAM A is allied with BLUEATEAM A in their first match. BLUEATEAM A has not had time for repairs, and they are against three good shooters. Who wins? The other alliance. Why? REDATEAM A damaged BLUEATEAM A the day before.


My point? If you are not careful who you practice defense on and how, you could shoot yourself in the foot.

I would support the signs for "Don't hit me" during practice rounds with one reservation: If a robot with one of those signs starts playing hard defense-more than incidental contact-they are fair game for the rest of the match, because they are ready for defense.

[Cody Carey]

Everybody on this thread is clustering "Damaging" with "Playing Defense", and they are clearly not the same thing. I can play defense and not damage anything... But I will stop you from making a single shot. Damaging isn't supposed to be done in the real game, so of course it isn't allowed in practices.
Both offensive and defensive robots need practice... but a defensive robot practicing on an offensive robot that's not playing offence won't help anything, Just as an offensive robot practicing against a defensive robot that isn't touching them won't help anybody.

I think that the bottom line is this:

Practice matches are exactly like any-other matches and should be played as such, No robot trying to damage any other robot, but robots playing a hard defense and a solid offense,


Besides a robot that's not finished, which would be obvious by the state of their pits when your scouts come around... I don't see any reason not to practice the Actual game.

[Lil' Lavery]

People have taken my original statement out of context. I never once said that defense during practice matches was bad. I used terms like "hard contact defense" and "hardcore physical defense". I even explicitly said that testing of defensive systems is fully acceptable. I agree, defensive bots do need practice, and you do need to simulate real game actions.
BUT, you should not have to deal with some of the more physical play that may be acceptable during the qualification and elimination matches. Issues like pinning, ramming, tipping, and robot damage should never come into play during the practice matches. Teams should not have to worry about being essentially pinned onto their own ramp by another robot. Many teams are not designed to go on and off the ramp easily, if at all. I have seen multiple cases during practice matches of teams getting shoved onto their ramp, and because their design inhibits them from getting off the ramp properly, they lose the remainder of that practice match (in addition to the time where they were being shoved onto the ramp).
It is un-gracious, and un-professional to essentially eliminate a teams testing time by playing strong physical defense on them. Off-field and practice field testing are never the same as on-field testing, for many various reasons, even aside of the presence of other robots. Many teams do not possess full scale fields to test on, and many regionals do not have full practice fields either. They both often just possess a segment of the field with key scoring elements on it. This does not allow you to test certain autonomous and driving funtions, and even some long range shooters.

[GB330033]

Ah, I see your point now. In that case, I completely agree. Those sort of actions should not occur during practice. No one should be allowed to essentially tell other teams how long they get to practice for. The one exception I could see, and of course it'd have to be arranged, is for a team to see if they could push another up the ramp. Then again, considering the risks in testing that, I doubt anyone would ever try it in practice anyway...