GP, Ramming, and Practice

[Jack Jones]

Originally Posted by Greg Perkins

As a ref at Pittsburgh last year I can tell you that us ref's paid little attention to the robots. We were still trying to streamline our calls, and understand the rules as best as we could. I would'nt rely on ref's on thursday to take note or robots simply because they are busy still learning the rules.

As for Lil' Lavery, 100% on the nose with this. Defense in practice is so low; for those teams who didn't have a chance to test prior to ship and thursday being thier only day to test, those teams who built their bot in probably 3 weeks with the mindset of defense and who have had the other 3 weeks to practice driving should respect the teams who need to comb out their robot. What satisfaction do you defensive teams get?

As a ref at GLR, Detroit, MWR, WMR, and Atlanta last year, I can tell you I went into them knowing the rules, and had all the time in the world to make sure the teams knew them too. Failure to prepare is never a good excuse for anything.

Number 71 took a nasty fall off the ramp in practice here at MWR and nobody heard them crying about it. They and 1213 have been at it all day - clean as heck - but they both came to play. Tomorrow's going to be awesome. "No place for a nervous person!", as we say back home in Hockey Town.

[Kevin Sevcik]

Originally Posted by Cody C

Everybody om this thread is clustering "Damaging" with "Playing Defense", and they are clearly not the same thing. I can play defense and not damage anything... But I will stop you from making a single shot. Damaging isn't supposed to be done in the real game, so of course it isn't allowed in practices.
Both offensive and defensive robots need practice... but a defensive robot practicing on an offensive robot that's not playing offence won't help anything, Just as an offensive robot practicing against a defensive robot that isn't touching them won't help anybody.

I think that the bottom line is this:

Practice matches are exactly like any-other matches and should be played as such, No robot trying to damage any other robot, but robots playing a hard defense and a solid offense,
Besides a robot that's not finished, which would be obvious by the state of their pits when your scouts come around... I don't see any reason not to practice the Actual game.

I refer you to my rules post earlier in the thread, and the following excerpt from section 8:

8.2 PRACTICE ROUNDS
8.2.1 Schedule
The Practice Rounds will be played all day Thursday. The Practice Rounds schedule will be available on Thursday morning. Practice Rounds will be randomly assigned. Each team will be assigned an equal number of Practice Rounds. At some events, additional rounds may be available on a standby basis. Each Practice Round will consist of a ten-minute period in which teams may operate their robot on the field. The first five minutes of each Practice Round will start with a 10-second autonomous period, and followed by a “free-form” session, in which the robots may be exercised to evaluate operational characteristics, gain driver experience, determine system robustness, etc. The second five minutes of each Practice Round will be conducted as a “match” with approximately two minutes for set up, two minutes and fifteen seconds of regular game play (including autonomous operations), and one minute to clear the field.

As far as I'm concerned, the rules specifically state that practice rounds are not meant to be played like the actual game. And "friendly interaction" between robots is allowed if all teams are willing.

As to your first point, yes you can certainly stop me from making any shot if you defend me well enough. I'm well aware of this and don't really care to test the fact if my primary concern in that practice match is testing camera code and dialing in the shooter. If you prevent me from ever sitting still long enough to do so, you've wasted my whole practice round for me, and I will not thank you for it. If you defend me beacuse from your scouting, you assume I'm done testing my robot... well everyone knows what assuming does. As noted by others above, I think communication is very important. But I think the onus should be on teams intending to interfere with other robots practicing and testing. Better to ask permission than forgiveness, as my parents told me.

[Dillon Compton]

...The second five minutes of each Practice Round will be conducted as a “match” with approximately two minutes for set up, two minutes and fifteen seconds of regular game play...

The rule clearly states that regular game play is allowed, and expected, for the second five minutes of each mach. And as for all you folks who think defensive bot have been practicing for 3 weeks? wrong. We were forced to change our design last-minute, and now will have a functional side goal delivery system as well as a very strong defensive bot - what this means is that we have work to do on thursday, and will probably make most of our practice matches - we plan on primarily practicing driving, ball collection, etc... But we would be FOOLS to not practice realistic defensive driving at least once or twice; the practice round is to work out the kinks in systems, and to test, as the rule quoted in the post above my says, "System Robustness". Sure, we dont want to eliminate all of your practice time by tipping you or getting you stuck on the ramp, but dont $@#$@#$@#$@#$@# if we push you around a bit- that our strategy and our system and it deserves just as much testing in our practice rounds as your shooters deserve in yours. I mean, come on folks, just because you had the resources, time, knowledge or what-have-you to build a "fancier" robot does not mean that we robots with a focus on defense should be forced to effectively forfeit our practice opportunities; there WILL be goals at the regionals, off to the side of the Pits like there are every year; if you need more time to calibrate your camera, feel free to use them!

I plan, if I am driving, to practice defense in the practice rounds within reasonable limits; I will, of course, be sure to avoid damaging other robots. If someone asks me not to hit them because they are calibrating a system, I'm fine with that.

But I dont need to and probably WONT (barring contrary instruction from a coach/mentor/the rest of the team) loose my entire practice round and just practice basic driving because everyone wants to line up in front of their goal and shoot for 2 minutes. Expect defense to be played - we ALL need to test our bots, not just the shooters. Expect me to give you time to calibrate, maybe even leave you alone for the entire two 40 second periods, but when the free for all comes, I'm testing my defense.


Good luck all,
Dillon Compton

[Kevin Sevcik]

Ahem. Well, not to harp on things but a few final points, then I'll wander off for the day. First, the Courtesy section in the rules I quoted earlier, says that "friendly interaction" is allowed if all teams are willing. If you want to be discourteous or think FIRST can't suggest how you use your practice matches, well... fine. I'm pretty sure the "regular game play" means the field will be pretending it's an actual match. I don't think it's mandating that the teams do so.

Second, defending in a practice match still won't be anything like a normal match. If a robot doesn't want to be defended, they're not going to be working at competition levels. Even then, defenders aren't likely to have other robots running interference on them. I think practice matches are, by definition, not real matches.

Finally, teams are saying that they're okay with other teams asking not to be defended. Why can't you just assume that other teams don't want to be defended and then ask to see if they're okay with it? Assuming another team wants to be annoyed seems backwards to me. And annoying other teams seems like a bad idea.

[Dillon Compton]

Originally Posted by Kevin Sevcik

Ahem. Well, not to harp on things but a few final points, then I'll wander off for the day. First, the Courtesy section in the rules I quoted earlier, says that "friendly interaction" is allowed if all teams are willing.

Ah, I had actually missed that part of the rules section- agreed, in this case, then. Friendly interaction = FIRST rule = the way it'll happen.

My opinion of the fact that people need to be aware that defensive 'bots need practice too still stands; I would hope, even if you have to calibrate systems or something, you all dont just say "NO CONTACT" because you are afraid of breaking something; We wont slam you against walls against your will, you let us practice pushing you around for a minute out of ten, or something.

I think we are all mature enough to agree that everyone deserves fair times to practice their systems, be they defensive or offensive in nature.

-Dillon Compton
Team 1394

[hansTP2S]

What if you want to practice defense?

[Joe_Widen]

Over the past weeks, I've read a lot about the practice matches being to physical and defensive. The easyiest thing to do is talk to you opponents and politely tell them what the purpose of this match is for you. If you want to try your shooter than tell them. If you want some pressure on you while your shooting tell them. Most teams have no problem helping you out. You cant expect someone to not do something if you havent asked them not to.

Saying that, good luck to all on behalf of Team 1675.

[Nawaid Ladak]

Thats How It Should Be, ALWAYS

you do what they want you to do, and they do what u want them to do. remember, you have TWO matches douring each practice game....match....whatever.

[Ethulin]

Originally Posted by Joe_Widen

Over the past weeks, I've read a lot about the practice matches being to physical and defensive. The easyiest thing to do is talk to you opponents and politely tell them what the purpose of this match is for you. If you want to try your shooter than tell them. If you want some pressure on you while your shooting tell them. Most teams have no problem helping you out. You cant expect someone to not do something if you havent asked them not to.

Saying that, good luck to all on behalf of Team 1675.

Agreed.

But what if one team wants to practice their defense and the other alliance does not want to be defended?

[Winged Globe]

Originally Posted by Ethulin

But what if one team wants to practice their defense and the other alliance does not want to be defended?

Be gracious and compromise? One match left alone and the other with defense? Play defense on the other robots only (if they don't mind)? Play defense during part of the match only?

[meaubry]

Originally Posted by Joe_Widen

Over the past weeks, I've read a lot about the practice matches being to physical and defensive. The easyiest thing to do is talk to you opponents and politely tell them what the purpose of this match is for you. If you want to try your shooter than tell them. If you want some pressure on you while your shooting tell them. Most teams have no problem helping you out. You cant expect someone to not do something if you havent asked them not to.

Saying that, good luck to all on behalf of Team 1675.

I merged thread titled (please read this with the ramming during practice and gp thread) - its all about the same thing really.

[Kevin Sevcik]

Originally Posted by Winged Globe

Be gracious and compromise? One match left alone and the other with defense? Play defense on the other robots only (if they don't mind)? Play defense during part of the match only?

A suggestion. There are 5 teams besides yourself on the field. It's not a real match. You're only out of luck if all 5 teams don't want to be defended, since there's no reason a Red team can't practice on another Red team.

[Koko Ed]

Originally Posted by Kevin Sevcik

A suggestion. There are 5 teams besides yourself on the field. It's not a real match. You're only out of luck if all 5 teams don't want to be defended, since there's no reason a Red team can't practice on another Red team.

Sometimes it looked like in some qualifying matches that some teams were being defended by thier own allaince partners.

[Not2B]

Originally Posted by KenWittlief

There is a simple answer for this problem. Make up yellow signs or triangles or something you can put on your robot. If your robot has not yet been inspected, or you are still missing stuff (like bumpers) on thrusday, you put the big yellow triangle on your bot, and all the teams are told this means "NO CONTACT!"

Now that's a good idea.

I imagine that teams would respect that. (If not... what the heck is up with them!?!?)

[koozman]

As a ref, I wouldn't mind if teams asked to be left alone...some teams might want to practice but not be manhandled. Tell the refs and we can inform the other team: like when you see in football practice, the QB has a special jersey on so that the defensive team doesn't touch him. I think the other teams would be gracious enough to leave them alone.