Midwest Elim Alliances

[xzvrw2]

i wish we were there to try to finally win Midwest.
it would have been awesome if we could
but thinks weren't meant to be
maybe i will become a mentor for a team that goes there and wins next year
that would be awesome
haha
<3

[Don Wright]

As mentioned above...any video anywhere?

[Andy Grady]

I think those Wildstang guys came out to New England last week and learned something...and it certainly showed! Defense wins championships, especially in this game.

Congrats to Wildstang and co. on a great job!

Better bring those bumpers to Atlanta...its gonna be a rough one!

-Andy Grady

[Mike Soukup]

Originally Posted by Andy Grady

I think those Wildstang guys came out to New England last week and learned something...and it certainly showed! Defense wins championships, especially in this game.

Congrats to Wildstang and co. on a great job!

Better bring those bumpers to Atlanta...its gonna be a rough one!

-Andy Grady

How'd I know you were going to start harping on us about your East coast defense again Grady. Don't you get tired of it?

In this case you're only partially right. Defense was a key to winning the MWR, but offense in autonomous is what set up the win. In the first round of the finals 1810 missed Beatty and they sank a bunch of balls in the 3-point goal while our partner 1756 made its usual ~8 balls in the 1-point goal and we missed most of our attempts at the 3-point goal. We lost autonomous, started the match with a near 30 point deficit, and never got back in the game because neither us or 1756 had any balls to score in our offensive period.

In the second round 1810 tapped Beatty while they were shooting in autonomous so they missed all their shots. We made a bunch and 1756 dumped low, so we started with a ~40 point advantage. Beatty was out of balls and when they went back to reload, our partners trapped them and harassed them for the rest of the match. They ended up on our ramp by the end.

The third round was similar to the second. Beatty conceded the autonomous victory to us and didn't shoot any, so we started with a huge lead again. This time they were ready to shoot at the start of the second period, and our partners were ready to defend. Beatty sank a few while being harassed, and had to reload during our offensive period. We gave up on shooting during our offensive period and concentrated our entire alliance on stopping Beatty from collecting balls and getting back to the goal. We pushed them around for 80 seconds, but they were still able to score a few and the final score was much closer than I thought it would be.

So the lesson is that defense is important, but only if you already have the lead. If you lose autonomous, defense will get you nowhere since you already have a huge deficit to make up. As others have mentioned, the real key this year is winning autonomous and you can't do that without what Grady? That's right, offense.

We'll bring our bumpers to Atlanta and be ready for a tough fight, but we'll also bring our offense.

Disclaimer: before any of you get bent out of shape, the ribbing I'm giving Andy is all in good fun.

[Koko Ed]

Originally Posted by Mike Soukup

How'd I know you were going to start harping on us about your East coast defense again Grady. Don't you get tired of it?

In this case you're only partially right. Defense was a key to winning the MWR, but offense in autonomous is what set up the win. In the first round of the finals 1810 missed Beatty and they sank a bunch of balls in the 3-point goal while our partner 1756 made its usual ~8 balls in the 1-point goal and we missed most of our attempts at the 3-point goal. We lost autonomous, started the match with a near 30 point deficit, and never got back in the game because neither us or 1756 had any balls to score in our offensive period.

In the second round 1810 tapped Beatty while they were shooting in autonomous so they missed all their shots. We made a bunch and 1756 dumped low, so we started with a ~40 point advantage. Beatty was out of balls and when they went back to reload, our partners trapped them and harassed them for the rest of the match. They ended up on our ramp by the end.

The third round was similar to the second. Beatty conceded the autonomous victory to us and didn't shoot any, so we started with a huge lead again. This time they were ready to shoot at the start of the second period, and our partners were ready to defend. Beatty sank a few while being harassed, and had to reload during our offensive period. We gave up on shooting during our offensive period and concentrated our entire alliance on stopping Beatty from collecting balls and getting back to the goal. We pushed them around for 80 seconds, but they were still able to score a few and the final score was much closer than I thought it would be.

So the lesson is that defense is important, but only if you already have the lead. If you lose autonomous, defense will get you nowhere since you already have a huge deficit to make up. As others have mentioned, the real key this year is winning autonomous and you can't do that without what Grady? That's right, offense.

We'll bring our bumpers to Atlanta and be ready for a tough fight, but we'll also bring our offense.

Disclaimer: before any of you get bent out of shape, the ribbing I'm giving Andy is all in good fun.

We're still waitng for Brandon to install the sarcasm button.

[Justin]

So I think that Mike brings up a good point. I think perhaps there has been some misunderstanding on the Northeast philosophy around defense. I don't think we've ever tried to maintain that all-defense all the time will win every match. Clearly it won't. The point that I think we have always tried to make is that the same exact thing holds true for offense. What you really need is both. I have tried to impress upon my good friends on team 126 that, in my opinion, where they went wrong is by not having both. The lesson that both teams 126 and 71 should be learning from this year's game is that you need both. You cannot expect to go out there with three shooters and out shoot an alliance that is playing heavy defense on you. It just doesn't work, as has been proven in at least two sets of finals at two regionals now. The key I believe is a versatile alliance. Have a great shooter yes but have a great defensive bot that can mix it up and run interference for the shooter. I believe this is where some alliances have gone wrong, primarily because I think if you are able to remove the best shooter from the match defensively then you completely change the balance of the match and possibly, though not necessarily, swing it.

Just some thoughts,

Justin

P.S. How come when I say these things no one listens and when Andy speaks it is scripture.

[Joel J]

Yes, I agree that you need both.

When we saw that we had three shooters on our alliance, going into the FLR finals, we decided to concede our shooting/offense to focus on a more defensive role. That is, we decided to be the defensive robot on the alliance. So, during defensive mode, we would play defense on the scoring teams, while allowing both our partners to load up, and during offensive mode, we would cover our star shooter (SParX) so they could score all their balls, and then pray that both defensive robots would be more worried about us and SparX than our third partner, leaving them free to score a few unhindered.

We milked this strategy for all it was worth. We saw that we had a bullseye on our back, even moreso that 1126 did, so we would try to load up, or we would try to get on the ramp, or etc (to lure the defense), and then we'd be a distraction while 1126 went to score. Of course, if we started for the ramp, and no defenders followed, then we'd immidiately line up, and unload.

It was funny, because all the opponents thought they were shutting us down, and while they were right, they didn't realize what they were doing.

In the finals, both us and 1126 got shut down.. our defensive strategy didn't work out so well, so what we did in that round is irrelevant in this discussion.

The point is you DO need defense on your alliance; however, you do NOT usually have to sacrifice your alliance's offensive potential, only redirect it into a solid, consistent, and reliable defensive showing.

Huh?

I'd say pick an all shooter alliance, but then make sure that one of the shooters has a solid drive train, to play defense.

Also, 71 got shut down yesterday, and lost the match. If 71 had two partners that were also capable of shooting, then that shut down wouldn't have meant as much. Why? Because those other two robots would have been scoring those three pointers, instead of wasting time in a huddle. If you have three shooters, that don't have to be in the same place to shoot, you can spread out on the field, allowing only two to be defended at any one time.

There's alot to this, IMO, and all I'd be against is going to any single extreme, and executing your strategy around it. If you can have balance, then by all means, go for it.

BTW, I'd take three shooters over two shooters and a defender, but only because atleast on of those shooters should be able to focus on all defense should they need to. A third pick that's only a drivetrain can focus on defense very well, but should the tables turn, and you finding yourself needing some extra points scored, you are out of luck.

[MikeyP]

Originally Posted by Justin

So I think that Mike brings up a good point. I think perhaps there has been some misunderstanding on the Northeast philosophy around defense. I don't think we've ever tried to maintain that all-defense all the time will win every match. Clearly it won't. The point that I think we have always tried to make is that the same exact thing holds true for offense. What you really need is both. I have tried to impress upon my good friends on team 126 that, in my opinion, where they went wrong is by not having both. The lesson that both teams 126 and 71 should be learning from this year's game is that you need both. You cannot expect to go out there with three shooters and out shoot an alliance that is playing heavy defense on you. It just doesn't work, as has been proven in at least two sets of finals at two regionals now. The key I believe is a versatile alliance. Have a great shooter yes but have a great defensive bot that can mix it up and run interference for the shooter. I believe this is where some alliances have gone wrong, primarily because I think if you are able to remove the best shooter from the match defensively then you completely change the balance of the match and possibly, though not necessarily, swing it.

Just some thoughts,

Justin

P.S. How come when I say these things no one listens and when Andy speaks it is scripture.

No, I am very sure that was a "we beat 71!" post. Yes, 71 is an okay team, but they are certainly beatable just like every team in FIRST. I would argue that there are better teams all over the nation. Yes, our partners are amazing. They deserve to get as much credit for doing well as 71 does, if not, more credit. Next time you want to cheer about how you beat a veteran team, make sure you include the other teams in the alliance as well. Maybe you will cheer our loss as much as you cheer the loss of a struggling rookie team.

[Justin]

Originally Posted by MikeFrom71

No, I am very sure that was a "we beat 71!" post.

Okay I am really not sure what this means at all. In fact it would actually be impossible for me to make a "we beat 71" post because a) I am not on a team anymore. b) if you check my profile you will find that I list team 146 as my team this was my original high school team an it not longer exists. So I speak for no team, and no one but myself...period. This post was simply stating my interpretation of the events that have transpired in the matches and finals this year. In terms of the other members of the alliance I think they played well I apologize sincerely to 141 and 1775 no snub intended. In fact the intent of my post was not to snub or knock any one team but maybe just to highlight some observations for the benefit of other teams who might still have regionals to attend. I'm sorry you interpreted it as an attempt to slight your team or your alliance. However I will not apologize for the post and hope that some will find it useful. Team 71 has one what 4 national championships and they have plenty to be proud of, while I apologize for not being as familiar with 141 or 1775 I am sure that they have a list of equal accomplishments.


Justin

[Andy Grady]

Originally Posted by Mike Soukup

How'd I know you were going to start harping on us about your East coast defense again Grady. Don't you get tired of it?


In the second round 1810 tapped Beatty while they were shooting in autonomous so they missed all their shots.

Disclaimer: before any of you get bent out of shape, the ribbing I'm giving Andy is all in good fun.

Why can't you silly Wildstang people just stop being so stubborn and give in to the fact that you have been converted? You state that autonomous shooting is what gave you the advantage (offensive yes) but the key play there...you said yourself...1810 tapping Beatty. This years autonomous mode is like a chess match. You have autonomous powerhouses who can blast 7-10 balls through the 3 point goal, and yes, if you leave them alone you will be burnt by offense. HOWEVER, the ol' shoot em up offense in auto is easily defended by the most simple autonomous move in the game...the straight line auto kamakazee play (try saying that 3 times fast). That kamakazee move...autonomous DEFENSE!

::Sigh::

Why do I get the feeling that we'll be having another 3 day discussion on offense vs. defense in Atlanta? Don't worry Stang...we'll turn ya into a New England team yet!

-Andy Grady

[Dave Flowerday]

Originally Posted by Andy Grady

HOWEVER, the ol' shoot em up offense in auto is easily defended by the most simple autonomous move in the game...the straight line auto kamakazee play (try saying that 3 times fast).

Not necessarily - ask the teams that successfully attempted to run into us during autonomous if it stopped us from scoring during auto.

[Andy Grady]

Originally Posted by Dave Flowerday

Not necessarily - ask the teams that successfully attempted to run into us during autonomous if it stopped us from scoring during auto.

Well...yeah...I mean...look at your robot. Thats like running a horsefly into a refrigerator. Sure the effort is there, but in the end...there's just too much mass to budge it.

Good ol' Motorola engineering right there.

I will hazard a guess though, and say that the first time the Bobcats try to go full bore into you guys...there might just be a liiiiitle movement. But thats just me...I'm biased of course.

In all seriousness, do you guys utilize some sort of breaking mechanism, or is it just traction that keeps ya from moving?

[Dave Flowerday]

Originally Posted by Andy Grady

In all seriousness, do you guys utilize some sort of breaking mechanism, or is it just traction that keeps ya from moving?

I'm not suggesting that we can't be moved. In fact, during one match we were partially pushed up the ramp in autonomous.

My point was that we're capable of scoring anyway. And you also have to know where we're going to be in order to run into us.

It's all about the defense-avoidance offensive moves

[Greg Marra]

Originally Posted by Dave Flowerday

It's all about the defense-avoidance offensive moves

In the second match of the finals at UTC, 358 changed their autonomous routine from beelining toward the light to moving in an L. Instead of hitting them like we did in the first match, we went right by them!

That being said, we've taken some initiatives that should help us counteract such sneakery in the future.

[Justin]

Originally Posted by Greg Marra

In the second match of the finals at UTC, 358 changed their autonomous routine from beelining toward the light to moving in an L. Instead of hitting them like we did in the first match, we went right by them!

That being said, we've taken some initiatives that should help us counteract such sneakery in the future.

I'm thinking the heck with the green light there are lots of other things that might be beneficial to track out there on the playing field....especially in autonomous. I thought 177 rocked at UTC great defense and great strategy by opting to build your own alliance. Good luck at the rest of the comps and hope we'll see you in the off season. Have you guys been up to River Rage? It is early yet but we'd love to have you this will be the 10th year...should be a good one.

Justin