About being overweight and exceeding your size requirements – the need for reinspecti

[ScottM]

I think it's unfortunate that this thread was started. It was up to the robot inspectors to pass or fail this robot and obviously they passed it, because they were allowed to compete. To start a 2nd guessing thread at this point in time won't help anyone and hurts a team that was probably trying to follow all of the rules.

Bottom line - if they had a sticker, they should be allowed to compete. If there was a problem, it should have been challenged on the spot.

Scott

[ChuckDickerson]

Originally Posted by Billfred

It could be.

Personally, I'm wondering just how bad it'd be if teams had to weigh in before each match. Just drop your robot on the scale, make weight, and pick it back up to go onto the field. Probably would take a second scale, though.

FWIW: I really question the calibration of the competition scales sometimes. Last year we weighed in during initial inspection at 19.4 so we added a short piece of 1" x 1/16" wall aluminum box tube just to add a little more protection for our RC. It brought our total weight to 119.8. We never added or subtracted anything else from our robot the entire competition. When we re-weighed in before eliminations the robot was 118.7. Somehow we magically lost over 1 lb. I just can't see how that could have been anything other than the calibration of the scale. The scale was moved from the original inspection area to the queuing area before the start of eliminations. Scales of this precision require extremely good calibration and don't like to be moved. I have also noticed that, believe it or not, how the robot is placed on a scale changes the reading. We have a fairly good scale here at work used by our shipping department. It is probably calibrated once or twice a year. Last year we weighed our robot on it and the weight varied as much as 5 lbs depending on how the robot was placed on the scale.

[GaryVoshol]

Without being too specific (to not id the team), this team was nearly constantly working on their robot in the pits. It could be that some of their modifications during the weekend added weight, without their considering it. I would prefer to give them the benefit of the doubt.

Teams that make modifications during competitions must re-inspect.

[Dillon Compton]

Originally Posted by Billfred

It could be.

Personally, I'm wondering just how bad it'd be if teams had to weigh in before each match. Just drop your robot on the scale, make weight, and pick it back up to go onto the field. Probably would take a second scale, though.

Considering the rather startling disparity in calibration and sensitivity of scales from regional to regional, this worries me; the addition of adding a second weight in pre match will have 2 potential effects:

1.) The scales match perfectly, the re-weight accomplishes its objective- match resets/changeovers are delayed (although, perhaps NOT if re-weigh was at the last stage of qeue?), and everyone gets to play less matches. We get less for our reg. fees, and everyone goes home a little less satisfied. The spirit of first has taken a hit, and GP is 'enforced'.

2.) the scales dont match, and robots that were inspected at exactly 120lbs go over- robots are unfairly DQed, and arguments ensue; matches are delayed MORE than in case 1, and everyone gets to play even fewer matches. Teams DQed/not allowed to play thanks to a field-scale ruling are dissatisfied, since they already passed inspection once, and 6 hard weeks of work are thrown into the team's collective face, based on what, one would assume, is a minor weight difference between scales.


I DONT see this as viable, and I have a plethora of questions, suggestions, and clarifications that I will be contacting FIRST with if it becomes apparent that pre-match re-weighs will be standard next year.

Sure, the above team was heinously out of line- I've heard other stories about teams putting empty batteries on the robot for weigh in (when batteries were included in bot weight), adding extra motors post weigh in (even, apparently, motors BEYOND what was supplied in KoP), etc...

This means a few things: One. We, as a community, need to encourage EVERYONE to embrace GP- we know it is not all about winning, so let us make sure that everyone knows this. Additionally, take it upon yourselves to bring potential violations first to the team's attention, in a non-aggressive manner ("Hey, did you know that we did not get drill motors in the KoP this year? We've got a spare window motor if you want to swap it out...", etc...), and then to the head inspectors attention ("Hey, team XXXX had a 2004 drill motor on their 'bot- I reminded them it wasnt legal this year and offered them a replacement motor that is legal this year- just wanted to give you the heads up"). Additionally, I would support announcements being made regarding dishonest and illegal behavior prior to the start of selection; I would hope that none of us would choose a robot that had been running an extra motor or 15lbs overweight during alliance pairings, just because they were highly seeded.

This sort of thing is something that we can solve at a community level by doing the best we can do within the rules, and proving to everyone else that it is about the fun, the experience, and the inspiration and enjoyment that all of us students get out of FIRST- not about winning the matches by any means possible.

"Be the change you wish to see"
-Mahatma Ghandi

Lets do this, folks- this is not the place to flame, or to raise questions about other team's dishonest behavior- this is not the arena in which we need to take out our rage or dissapointment- let us just remember to do what we can, and encourage everyone to remember what FIRST strives to be.

To the author of this thread; thank you for bringing this issue to the community's attention, and I would suggest that in the future, if this occurs, you make it known to other teams at the regional, or simply refuse inspection of the robot- no exceptions should be made. Had I been in your situation, I'd have refused it at the "conditional pass" step, methinks; they are rules. We need to follow them, however dissapointing it is, or however bad you feel, telling that robot to loose the 13lbs before comp.


Just my $.02

Dillon Compton
Team 1394

[Biff]

Originally Posted by DeepWater

Isn't the reason we now weigh in without the battery because the batteries can vary a pound or more from one to the other and teams were picking their lightest battery to weigh in with? Is there any truth to the rumor I heard that years ago (before my time FIRST) one or more teams were caught weighing in with "modified" (read hollowed out) batteries?

The variance in weight on the batteries is correct our lightest is 13.2 and the heaviest is 15.1 from the days of weighing robot with battery. The other (hollowed battery) has been mentioned before. It may just be an urban legend. Never heard any "facts" one way or another.

[meaubry]

Where do I start - hmmm, lets see -
Inspectors have a very difficult job, and it is compounded by time constraints associated with the way the competition is managed. Thursday is suppose to be practice day and teams are suppose to get through the inspection process before the competition seeding matches begin on Friday, or they are not suppose to be able to participate.
Teams are expected to meeting ALL of the build rules - that is very, very difficult to do for some teams before "the bot goes in the box".
Regardless of the time constraints, the getting ready and making the robot function, I think the expectation is that ALL of the rules are suppose to be met by all participants. I think that there were more than just weight and size concerns
Editorial side note - 1 oz over weight, 1/8 inch outside of the box, ball launchers not covered properly, sharp edges on frames that rip bumper covers from one end to the other. Are all violations looked at with a different measuring stick?? We shouldn't close a blind eye to just one or two - why have the rules if they are subject to opinions instead of consistent validation techniques?

Okay - so now the reality / humanity of the situation comes into play.
Team XX is in trouble right outta the crate - the robots isn't completed yet or its 30 lbs over weight. The team is working off a shoestring budget, have few students and mentors, and they are lucky to even just scrap up enough to show up. They bring very limited tools and even less material. They knew some of the rules but not all of them - they need help.

The inspectors are busy looking around to see "who is in trouble??" - word is quietly passed.
Teams showing GP offer much help and assistance - some ask for help some are asked if they need help.
Thursday practice day passes and some teams don't get a passing grade. They are on the the Friday "hot sheet" - some get conditional passes and are told to fix this or that before competing.
Inspectors run around trying to make sure those with conditional or have not passed inspection DO NOT compete in matches.

Possible process improvements that could be considered -
1) Thursday after lunch or a designated time 2:30pm? - NON-Passed robots list provided to Head Ref. - No practice allowed for robots that have not passed inspection
2) Friday morning - Hot sheet listing all non-passed robots provided to Head Ref. or designee and its used to assure teams that have not passed cannot participate
3) Qualify points for non-passed robots that miss their match should be 0 regardless if they were on the winning alliance and their record should not include wins, losses or ties - if they do not participate in the match.
4) All conditional passes should be approved prior to participation by all teams participating at the event - Conditional approved robot list shared at Drivers meeting and vote by show of hands - thus eliminating any discussion of preferential treatment - lets put GP to a real test.

[Nuttyman54]

wow this is a hot thread

I for one, never understood why teams were allowed to play (practicing is OK) before fully passing inspection, and I think the option to conditionally pass should be excersized only in very odd circumstances.
We were 10 lbs overweight and about an 1/8 of an inch over sized (washers sticking out) on Friday, and we missed the rest of our practice matches to get it legal (we succeeded). Our team makes it a point to get inspected by or shortly after lunch so that we have time to make modifications if necessary and, to my knowledge, have never needed to get conditionally passed.

[Don Wright]

This is unfortunate. However, before we all get worked up in a tizzy, let's take a deep breath and relax...

Rules in FIRST are like laws. They are just design constraints for everyone build their robot to. The honest teams will design and build their robot to meet these requirements just like honest people live by the law. Sure, they might make some mistakes and their shooter might be shooting too fast, or their robot is a little too big or heavy, but they make corrections to follow the rules to make it a fair competition.

I would have to say that most of the FIRST teams fall into this category.

Then there are those that don't follow the rules. Some see how far they can bend them...others flat out break them. Unfortunately, if that is what they want to do, there isn't much we can do. You don't think I can't engineer my expansion with two pin locations...one that is legal, and then one that is extended two or three inches more to give me just a little advantage? Or something I can add and take off quick for added weight...so I get inspected and then throw this extra spike/motor/wire harness on real quick? Or a knob on my control board to control shooter speed so if I get tested, I just turn it down, pass, then crank it back up?

Cheaters are going to cheat. And by implimenting more and more "checks" it is just going to hurt the 90+% (I hope) teams out there that don't cheat, but now have to jump through hoops for three days proving over and over again that they do follow the rules.

Unfortunately, our GP sometimes stops us from maybe doing the only thing we can do to stop this from happening. Calling more teams out if you see them doing something you think is funny (not funny ha ha). But, then again, you don't want to be "that team" that is calling everyone a cheater.

Maybe this team did weigh with the battery. Maybe some of the teams I saw at GLR that shot from the starting position and hit the banners behind the field 3/4 of the way up had a bug in their program and their shooter was malfunctioning. I hope so.

I for one would like to believe that...

[Nuttyman54]

They didn't test our shooter for speed when we were inspected. Albeit, our "shooter" is a bit odd, but it IS a shooter. In fact, I don't know if it was even on the checklist...

[eugenebrooks]

Flat bed scales are notorious for being sensitive to the weight
distribution of the object placed on them. We use a hanging
scale when we weigh our robot, or parts, in the shop. One
gets a much more consistent reading that way.

Eugene

Originally Posted by DeepWater

FWIW: I really question the calibration of the competition scales sometimes. Last year we weighed in during initial inspection at 19.4 so we added a short piece of 1" x 1/16" wall aluminum box tube just to add a little more protection for our RC. It brought our total weight to 119.8. We never added or subtracted anything else from our robot the entire competition. When we re-weighed in before eliminations the robot was 118.7. Somehow we magically lost over 1 lb. I just can't see how that could have been anything other than the calibration of the scale. The scale was moved from the original inspection area to the queuing area before the start of eliminations. Scales of this precision require extremely good calibration and don't like to be moved. I have also noticed that, believe it or not, how the robot is placed on a scale changes the reading. We have a fairly good scale here at work used by our shipping department. It is probably calibrated once or twice a year. Last year we weighed our robot on it and the weight varied as much as 5 lbs depending on how the robot was placed on the scale.

[KyleGilbert45]

All this talk about batteries reminds me of this old old old thread.

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...attery+ holes

Ahh those were the days.

[Kims Robot]

This thread saddens me...

At FLR this year, we had a bit of trouble with the scales and with our weight, sure it was only 3 lbs, but we had taken 20 off before we shipped... there were very few holes to drill, very little left to take out... We weighed our robot thursday at 7:55pm... it was 1.2lbs overweight. We thought we knew where to take it out, but just for caution's sake, I had the team reweigh right when we got there at 8am... all of a sudden it was 3lb overweight!! Amongst the jokes of our robot eating too many ice cream sundays, we were a bit bewildered, but we were determined.

We pulled off the camera to make weight for our first match(and finally passed inspecition), and then hacked at it until we took 3lb of wire, pieces, holes, bolts etc off... we went back and asked for an official reweigh with the camera on, and made it. After that the inspector thanked me for coming back to reweigh!! Thanked me?!?!?

Thats what saddens me. In FIRST, it used to be that EVERYONE would do that, it wasnt rare, it was honest and expected. There was no guessing, no "I think that equals out." Every team wanted the challenge of meeting all the rules... sure we all grumbled about the scales, or about this or that rule, but in the end, we NEVER tried to skirt any of them especially weight.

FIRST is based on an honor system, its based on GP... we shouldnt have to go to "mandatory weigh ins" for each match, we shouldnt have to "anonymously" turn eachother in... we are all in this together, and there is no reason to try and go around the rules, or beg the inspector to pass you. But maybe thats just my "old age" talking!

::sigh:: Ok I just had to say that...

[Rick TYler]

Originally Posted by Kims Robot

(...) maybe thats just my "old age" talking!

Heh. I have shoes older than you.

My 2 cents. Sometimes, measuring is a way of keeping honest people honest. The old business term is, "inspect what you expect." A quick weight check in the queue waiting to compete would let teams know if they had a little weight creep. Knowing that this check is coming would help teams focus on weight issues as they tweak and fiddle. I'm not a rules freak here -- if a team weighed a little too much (like 1% over), I would give them a provisional pass on the grounds that they submitted to an official weight check before their next match.

This would require an additional scale, and maybe one additional volunteer, but it would keep the focus on weight during the competition.

Confession: We needed to add a reinforcing bar to the back of Maverick at PNW, and we already knew the bar in question would add 14 ounces to our weight. We pulled a globe motor off and put the bar on, and assumed our weight was still OK. I'm nearly sure we were OK, but we would have taken Maverick to the scales to make sure if we had known there were at least spot checks on weight.

Also, let me join my voice to those that think the specific 13-pound problem way up there could very well have been the battery. I would truly hate to think that someone was just plain old NASCAR cheating.

[Steve W]

I was present at Detroit when this happened. There was no battery on the robot.
I would also like to commend Ron on the way it was handled. He used the only options available at the time to full effect. The problem is that there are no rules about being over weight except that you must meet weight to compete. The team did that before their first elim match. Ron had no other option but to allow them to compete. He did however give a great speech to the team captain and I was sure that they would not compete. Boy I was surprised.

I guess the whole issue is based on GP and what it means to each team and member.There will be many more times that things like this will come up. We need to use this as a reminder that not everyone has bought into this mind set and that we need to lead by example to allow others to learn. We must always follow the rules and make sure that we are accountable to every other FIRST team. We can still change this world one step at a time. Let's start here by looking back at ourselves and see what we can do rather than condemning a team that has slipped a bit.

[GaryVoshol]

Hmmm. Some good points here:

Originally Posted by meaubry

Possible process improvements that could be considered -
1) Thursday after lunch or a designated time 2:30pm? - NON-Passed robots list provided to Head Ref. - No practice allowed for robots that have not passed inspection

Then the afternoon sessions could have caught up on time as we did in the morning sessions - combining 2 practice sessions into one, and still having only 5 bots total on the field!

2) Friday morning - Hot sheet listing all non-passed robots provided to Head Ref. or designee and its used to assure teams that have not passed cannot participate

Does the ref not see the whiteboard at the inspection station?

3) Qualify points for non-passed robots that miss their match should be 0 regardless if they were on the winning alliance and their record should not include wins, losses or ties - if they do not participate in the match.

This is particularly interesting, because the team in question benefitted from just such a match - the one in which the 1-on-3 robot won.

4) All conditional passes should be approved prior to participation by all teams participating at the event - Conditional approved robot list shared at Drivers meeting and vote by show of hands - thus eliminating any discussion of preferential treatment - lets put GP to a real test.

No. We've seen too many instances where the desire to win has overwhelmed GP. (E.g., Ron's anecdotes about alliances at GLR, when the game scores were possibly mixed up.)

FWIW, another team which was in the top 8 in Detroit (and were picked by a higher seed) came out of the box at 139 lbs Thursday morning. They made weight.

I will agree that inspection is a difficult task. The various inspectors have differing aspects of inspection that are stressed - just as judges have differing opinions on what makes a team a trophy winner. The fact that all teams in the finals must be reinspected says something - that things may have changed since passing inspection.

Would random spot-check inspections throughout the weekend be feasible? Every hour or so a team is chosen at random to be resized or reweighed; maybe another look is taken at electrical, pneumatics, etc. Kinda like the random drug tests for athletes - the theory is that teams will comply because they have the chance of being caught. Whether it is a deliberate breach or an unintentional oversight, teams in error will have to correct their ways.