how effective are the herders/dumpers?

[Beth Sweet]

I found that while the "dumpers" were very valuable, that they were also very much ignored. We were only defended against once at Detroit (when both of our partners broke) and very late in the day on Friday at Milwaukee. People are so busy watching the shooters and the balls flying through the air that they don't notice machines like ours dumping in 30-40 balls a match. It was the funniest thing to me when, after the match where the other alliance was able to effectively defend the 2 lower goals our kids were like, they're giving us the compliment that we're good enough to defend!

[CircularLogic]

I think it is important to distinguish between dumpers and herders.

Being a dumper was good when you could hold a lot of balls and score them quickly and effectively. You would also have to play very good defense as a dumper and be able to put the 10 in during autonomous.

Being a herder was probably the best thing you could have on a robot. One particularly good one at SBPLI was 358 (happauge eagles). They were a very good shooter but i think the reason they did so well was because they could harvest balls like nobody's business and then turn around and put them into the goal. During one match, there had to be at least 20 balls next to a corner goal. Any team that could have scooped them up and put them in would have one that match. Being a herder is what is going to separate the great scorers from the good scorers.

Originally Posted by [527]phil

Dumpers are only effective if they can push the shooters around. Penalties also play an important role in dumpers effectiveness. At our regional (SPBLI) only 1 penalty was called, and it was an offsides violation. therefore dumpers were allowed to do whatever they wanted. They constantly went into the goal, which should be a disqualification, and they repeatedly flipped other robots that were not even attempting to score. If penalties were enforced i believe that dumpers would have been significantly less successful.

//slight thread hijack

My team 1546 was at the SBPLI regional and I believe we pretty much played the game the way Phil seems to be grudgingly describing it. Our team prided itself on our defensive prowess (seeing as how our offensive capabilities were extremely low). This game is a physical game, teams were going to get tipped and teams that were capable shooters were going to be dogged all game long. I know many teams didnt like it, but our team's autonomous load was simply to interfere with the capable offensive modes of other teams. Many teams werent happy about our bot crossing the field at a decent speed in order to interfere with other bots. But the head ref put it the best way " I need an intent to harm." No robot at our regional had an intent to harm any other robot. We had an intent to win. And when you have to win your matches on defense, its going to get a little bit physical which is why FIRST emphasized building a robust robot.

I apologize for the slight hijack
//

back to your normally schedule program.

[Matt Kallerud]

Originally Posted by Tetraman

oh man...I got a story for you.

Dumpers are awsome...but never have two on a team.

At the end of the seeding matches at Buckeye...The first seeded team 965 (I think that's their number) choose team 123. Both these two teams are dumpers. When it came time to choose the last of their team, all they could choose was the Scarabian Knights 120 as the best shooter of who was left, and the shooter barely made any points at all.

The teams took the first matches by storm and ended easily on the platform, we thought we didn't stand a chance. But the dumpers have one very big flaw...they can only score in the lower goals. Thus, 272 and 174 stuck ourselves against the goals while 494 picked up balls during the times where the dumpers had offence. We took offence and all three of us too to the goal and loaded in about 40 points, and took to the goals again to block for the final period. By that time, there would be no chance for the extra 25 point bonus to even count.

I'd say a dumper is nice to have, but use caution when chooseing one.

I remember a match when the other alliance had three dumpers, and all we had to do was sit in front of the corner goals the whole time and it was an easy win.

[[527]phil]

I wasn't discounting dumping robots defensive capabilities. In some matches you guys gave us hell and we had a hard time shooting. I was just saying that flipping other teams or blocking them during their defensive period is illegal, flipping us while we are trying to shoot is totally legal. But if were only collecting balls flipping us intentionally isn't allowed. thats all i was saying.

[YonZ]

At NYC, herders were very important, with 395 and 348 taking the lead for much of the competition.
There weren't many reliable shooters there (there were some), and in autonomous, having herders dominated-- since shooters had to shoot 4 in the center goal in order to beat out a successful dumper (12 to 10), which I didn't see often. Also, the dumpers weren't easy to block as the shooters were, shooters sat there, so a quick ram did it-- but the herders were easily able to drive over to the corner goal to unload before anyone opposite them could get to 'em.
Also, the shooters were easily blockable from shooting in (unless you're 25 of course ), while unless you had the goals jammed up the entire round, the dumpers usually were able to push through and do their thing because of pin rules (I remember seeing some robot pinning 395 2Train as they had just loaded up from the human players and the referee was just counting pin time with his fingers, and the pushing bot had to constantly back away. Slowly the count required the duel to go beyond the corner goal/ramp area and 2Train began to be double teamed before it managed to get away and rush to the side goal to relieve itself of the 10 or 15 balls it was carrying.)

[nifty]

i don't know if i can speak for the herders, since the onle ones (my team's bot included) at the BAE were herders by necessity and not choice - when multiple systems leave you hanging, sometimes its all you can do. my team designed our bot to be a collecter/low shooter, but ran into problems with our shooting mechanism and ball release mechanism, so we ended up doing a lot of herding.

dumpers on the other hand, totally win my approval. i know team 97 and 213 (did i get the number right? i know they were the "dirty birds") both made it to the elimination rounds at BAE, and gave our team a lot of trouble whenever they were on an opposing allicance. our driver was great at defensive manouvering, but we just couldn't effectively stop the two teams i mentioned. this is a lot coming from a team whose bot held teams like cocoa beach and the t-hawks to almost nothing in our defensive rounds.

at the beginning of the build season, i wanted to build a six wheeled dumper, but we went with a more complicated design instead which proved to be our downfall, but that's life. props to 213 for their omnis, too. they were my favorite bot at BAE.

[Revolverx7]

Originally Posted by CircularLogic

I think it is important to distinguish between dumpers and herders.

Being a dumper was good when you could hold a lot of balls and score them quickly and effectively. You would also have to play very good defense as a dumper and be able to put the 10 in during autonomous.

Being a herder was probably the best thing you could have on a robot. One particularly good one at SBPLI was 358 (happauge eagles). They were a very good shooter but i think the reason they did so well was because they could harvest balls like nobody's business and then turn around and put them into the goal. During one match, there had to be at least 20 balls next to a corner goal. Any team that could have scooped them up and put them in would have one that match. Being a herder is what is going to separate the great scorers from the good scorers.

Thanks for that. We tried our best to pick up some balls when we could.

Herding is deffinetly important this year. I also think that dumping is also good, but only in partnership with 2 good shooters. Its also a very good way to ensure an autonomous win.

[akshar]

in the elimination rounds at boston every alliance (121,233,1568) played had one dumper on the alliance, in Quarterfinals: 1757, in semifinals 1592, and in finals it was 213, 213 and 1592, could score in auto mode and they did, but the winning alliance had 2 shooter (121 and 233) and one defensive (1568)

but 213 was an awesome dumper

[PBurrell]

In the peachtree regional, the winning alliance consisted of a shooter (1261), a dumper (1414), and another shooter/defense (1057). 1261 was the #1 seed, 1414 was the number 2 seed, and I don't remember 1057.

What we (1261) saw in 1414, was an unstoppable dumper during autonomous. Several teams tried to intercept them, but did not succeed. They consistently dumped all 10 balls during autonomous.

We had some autonomous shooting capability, but could be stopped after a limited number of balls were shot. If we were not targeted, we did OK during autonomous. We changed strategy depending upon our opponent.

We then had 1057 serving different roles depending upon opponent. They did very well adapting last minute to some of our alliance team requests. All in all, it paid off.

In the end, I agree with Lavery, a well balanced team is probably best. If an alliance depends on one thing (shooting), they can be stopped with no recourse.

Paul

[Scott358]

From the experience of having visited one regional, and participated in 2, I've seen dumpers do pretty well in qualifying rounds, when there's a diverse mix of experience on the field.

Once the playoffs start, from what I've seen, you had better have 2 shooters.
This was a big point in our last regional, as 329 was an awesome dumper, but we choose a shooter with our first pick (who happened to be an awesome shooter).

Have there been any regional winning alliances with 2 dumpers (who only dump) and 1 shooter? Or perhaps even 3 dumpers?

[Martinez]

Chuck 84 is a Herder and I feel we are very good at it. Granted its not the most challenging or important aspect of the game, but we have a very strong nitch. A Herder can do plenty on the field by being the back bot, utilizing the human player, picking up balls off the floor, relieving pressure on shooters or the ever classical defense. Beyond that, it depends on your allies, your automode, and how well you play the game together.

[Phoenixseeker]

Shooters are great, but i dont think a team of three will be as effective as some believe. From are one regional in Arizona Our team 1013 the Phoneix when we were paired with a good pair of shooters we dominated the competition and it really hurt are standings becuase we had no QP. We were 4-1 at the end of the day and in 15th place. We were able to push just about any bot there on the field and overall the 15 or so matches we had i think only 250 points were scored against us by other alliances.

[emnasson303]

I think they're just as important as any other team on an alliance; in general, a successful alliance has 3 robots that all together can complete all the tasks in the game.

[ZZII 527]

Originally Posted by nifty

i don't know if i can speak for the herders, since the onle ones (my team's bot included) at the BAE were herders by necessity and not choice - when multiple systems leave you hanging, sometimes its all you can do. my team designed our bot to be a collecter/low shooter, but ran into problems with our shooting mechanism and ball release mechanism, so we ended up doing a lot of herding.

dumpers on the other hand, totally win my approval. i know team 97 and 213 (did i get the number right? i know they were the "dirty birds") both made it to the elimination rounds at BAE, and gave our team a lot of trouble whenever they were on an opposing allicance. our driver was great at defensive manouvering, but we just couldn't effectively stop the two teams i mentioned. this is a lot coming from a team whose bot held teams like cocoa beach and the t-hawks to almost nothing in our defensive rounds.

at the beginning of the build season, i wanted to build a six wheeled dumper, but we went with a more complicated design instead which proved to be our downfall, but that's life. props to 213 for their omnis, too. they were my favorite bot at BAE.

Do you mean Boston?

213 and 97 were at BAE as well and had a pretty good showing. 1547 and 549 were also very impressive low-goal scorers in Granite State elimination rounds, hitting 10 almost every time in autonomous.

I think this game was particularly well-balanced; the 3:1 point ratio is perfect. Low goal scorers can make the difference in low-scoring or close high-scoring matches, and they are often able to sneak in while the shooters are being defended.

We went into the quarterfinals at Boston with two dumpers and one shooter against two shooters and one dumper. We pulled off the win, but it can be attributed most to an entirely different scoring mode: getting up the ramp. As others have said, the distinction between shooters and dumpers isn't as important without considering the complete package (herding, ball-storage, defense, ramp climbing, etc.)

[rocknthehawk]

I agree that the herders/dumpers are very important. I know we had a few matches where we dumped nearly full load of balls (somewhere around 45 points). A lot of the effectiveness of a herder/dumper is that the focus is usually on whoever the best three point shooter is, then you can send out your other partner to play defense on people defending the shooter, or basically get in the way. We did this, and it let our bot run free and score tons of points. Team 213 was very manuverable...makes me think what could have happened if we ran four omni's instead of two.