Go to Post Who knew there were this many FRC teams that are teams! Very impressive, I might add. - [more]
Home
Go Back   Chief Delphi > Technical > Technical Discussion
CD-Media   CD-Spy  
portal register members calendar search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read FAQ rules

 
Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 27-03-2006, 23:44
KrazyRoadster KrazyRoadster is offline
Registered User
AKA: Ashin Modak
None #0115 (MVRT (Monta Vista Robotics Team))
Team Role: Student
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Rookie Year: 2004
Location: Cupertino
Posts: 8
KrazyRoadster will become famous soon enoughKrazyRoadster will become famous soon enough
The advantage of holonomic drivetrains

It seemed to me that it was difficult for robots with holonomic drive trains to be succesful this year. Though these robots may have been more maneuvarable, the loss of traction often greatly hindered their robot. For example, I have seen a robot at sac and and svr which had an excellent shooter and ballpickup mechanism, but its omniwheels made it too easy to defend and psuh around. While I think these drivetrains are as cool as the next guy, I felt that these designs were at a disadvantage inthis years game.

My question is this: Has anyone seen a robot effectively use its holonomic drivetrain to an advantage? If so do you have any videos or pictures? What drive system did they use? ie mechanum, omniwheel, swivel, kiwi And to the teams which decided to use such drive train systems, why did you choose to use them, other than the engineering experience and "cool" factor?

please note that this post is not intended to be offensive to any teams which have used such drive trains. I am interested in these drive trains myself, and I was wondering what was some of the thinking behind using these drives in this years games.
  #2   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 27-03-2006, 23:59
Andrew Schuetze's Avatar
Andrew Schuetze Andrew Schuetze is offline
499 Founder / Alamo FTC & FLL AP
no team
Team Role: Leadership
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Rookie Year: 2001
Location: San Antonio, Texas
Posts: 689
Andrew Schuetze has a reputation beyond reputeAndrew Schuetze has a reputation beyond reputeAndrew Schuetze has a reputation beyond reputeAndrew Schuetze has a reputation beyond reputeAndrew Schuetze has a reputation beyond reputeAndrew Schuetze has a reputation beyond reputeAndrew Schuetze has a reputation beyond reputeAndrew Schuetze has a reputation beyond reputeAndrew Schuetze has a reputation beyond reputeAndrew Schuetze has a reputation beyond reputeAndrew Schuetze has a reputation beyond repute
Thumbs up Re: The advantage of holonomic drivetrains

Quote:
Originally Posted by KrazyRoadster
It seemed to me that it was difficult for robots with holonomic drive trains to be succesful this year.
snip
My question is this: Has anyone seen a robot effectively use its holonomic drivetrain to an advantage? If so do you have any videos or pictures? What drive system did they use? ie mechanum, omniwheel, swivel, kiwi And to the teams which decided to use such drive train systems, why did you choose to use them, other than the engineering experience and "cool" factor?

please note that this post is not intended to be offensive to any teams which have used such drive trains. I am interested in these drive trains myself, and I was wondering what was some of the thinking behind using these drives in this years games.
No offense taken here as we built an omni-wheel system this year looking for manuverability knowing that we may pay the price with defense and ramp climbing.

We play this weekend at LSR, so the proof will be there for us and then at Atlanta. I'd like to dialogue with any all teams using a holonomic drive this year as we do our own assesment. Eventually, we'd like to crab
__________________
APS

Founder FRC 499
Parent alumni FRC 2745 & 4219
Co-Coach FTC 4549 & 6407
Alamo FTC Affiliate Partner
Alamo FLL Affiliate Partner
  #3   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 28-03-2006, 00:37
Andrew Schuetze's Avatar
Andrew Schuetze Andrew Schuetze is offline
499 Founder / Alamo FTC & FLL AP
no team
Team Role: Leadership
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Rookie Year: 2001
Location: San Antonio, Texas
Posts: 689
Andrew Schuetze has a reputation beyond reputeAndrew Schuetze has a reputation beyond reputeAndrew Schuetze has a reputation beyond reputeAndrew Schuetze has a reputation beyond reputeAndrew Schuetze has a reputation beyond reputeAndrew Schuetze has a reputation beyond reputeAndrew Schuetze has a reputation beyond reputeAndrew Schuetze has a reputation beyond reputeAndrew Schuetze has a reputation beyond reputeAndrew Schuetze has a reputation beyond reputeAndrew Schuetze has a reputation beyond repute
Re: The advantage of holonomic drivetrains

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew Schuetze
No offense taken here as we built an omni-wheel system this year looking for manuverability knowing that we may pay the price with defense and ramp climbing.

We play this weekend at LSR, so the proof will be there for us and then at Atlanta. I'd like to dialogue with any all teams using a holonomic drive this year as we do our own assesment. Eventually, we'd like to crab

Off topic but somewhat related. How many teams did you see at your two regionals that used a traction wheel set up in the rear with casters in the front? I would say that this set-up has just as much suseptability to a defensive robot yet not gain as much in the area of manuverability. ...
__________________
APS

Founder FRC 499
Parent alumni FRC 2745 & 4219
Co-Coach FTC 4549 & 6407
Alamo FTC Affiliate Partner
Alamo FLL Affiliate Partner
  #4   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 28-03-2006, 01:54
Eldarion's Avatar
Eldarion Eldarion is offline
Electrical Engineer / Computer Geek
AKA: Eldarion Telcontar
no team (Teamless Orphan)
Team Role: Alumni
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Rookie Year: 2005
Location: Númenor
Posts: 558
Eldarion has a reputation beyond reputeEldarion has a reputation beyond reputeEldarion has a reputation beyond reputeEldarion has a reputation beyond reputeEldarion has a reputation beyond reputeEldarion has a reputation beyond reputeEldarion has a reputation beyond reputeEldarion has a reputation beyond reputeEldarion has a reputation beyond reputeEldarion has a reputation beyond reputeEldarion has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Eldarion Send a message via Yahoo to Eldarion
Re: The advantage of holonomic drivetrains

Speaking from experience at the Wisonsin regional, a holonomic was definitely at a disadvantage this year. We were pushed and shoved around, and on top of that our drive failed so that we couldn't even drive straight anymore. (We shot at the opponent's goal in autonomous once after executing a neat ground-loop )

Looks like the 4 and 6-wheel drives won out this year, even though holonomic's sooo much cooler.
__________________
CMUCam not working? Tracks sporadically? Try this instead: http://www.falconir.com!
PM me for more information if you are interested (it's open source!).

Want the FIRST Email blasts? See here: http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...ad.php?t=50809

"The harder the conflict, the more glorious the triumph. What we obtain too cheaply, we esteem too lightly; it is dearness only that gives everything its value."
-- Thomas Paine

If it's falling apart it's a mechanical problem. If it's spewing smoke it's a electrical problem.
If it's rampaging around destroying things it's a programming problem.

"All technology is run on 'Magic Smoke' contained within the device. As everyone knows, whenever the magic smoke is released, the device ceases to function."
-- Anonymous

I currently speak: English, some German, Verilog, x86 and 8051 Assembler, C, C++, VB, VB.NET, ASP, PHP, HTML, UNIX and SQL
  #5   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 28-03-2006, 07:35
Starke Starke is offline
Producer at The RoboSportsNetwork
AKA: Matt Starke
FRC #0174 (Arctic Warriors); (Alumni: 340 (GRR), 1126 (SparX))
Team Role: Leadership
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Rookie Year: 2003
Location: Rochester NY
Posts: 691
Starke has a reputation beyond reputeStarke has a reputation beyond reputeStarke has a reputation beyond reputeStarke has a reputation beyond reputeStarke has a reputation beyond reputeStarke has a reputation beyond reputeStarke has a reputation beyond reputeStarke has a reputation beyond reputeStarke has a reputation beyond reputeStarke has a reputation beyond reputeStarke has a reputation beyond repute
Re: The advantage of holonomic drivetrains

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eldarion
Speaking from experience at the Wisonsin regional, a holonomic was definitely at a disadvantage this year. We were pushed and shoved around, and on top of that our drive failed so that we couldn't even drive straight anymore. (We shot at the opponent's goal in autonomous once after executing a neat ground-loop )

Looks like the 4 and 6-wheel drives won out this year, even though holonomic's sooo much cooler.
i have also seen this at many regionals. a robot with holonomic drive would have to be so fast that a 4wd or 6wd bot could not stop you. think of Hot team 67 last year (see below). it was similar drive, i witnessed the robot do a pick and roll maneuver that you see in basketball with. you need to have holonomic drive perfectly right to have it work effectively.

__________________


Team 340 | G.R.R. | Alumni/Mentor | 2003-2007, 2010
Team 1126 | SparX | Engineer | 2008-2009
FRCDesigns.com | Engineer | 2011 - Present
Team 174 | Arctic Warriors | Advisor | 2012 - Present
  #6   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 28-03-2006, 07:42
John Gutmann John Gutmann is offline
I'm right here
AKA: sparksandtabs
FRC #0340 (GRR)
Team Role: Mechanical
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Rookie Year: 2004
Location: rochester
Posts: 804
John Gutmann has a brilliant futureJohn Gutmann has a brilliant futureJohn Gutmann has a brilliant futureJohn Gutmann has a brilliant futureJohn Gutmann has a brilliant futureJohn Gutmann has a brilliant futureJohn Gutmann has a brilliant futureJohn Gutmann has a brilliant futureJohn Gutmann has a brilliant futureJohn Gutmann has a brilliant futureJohn Gutmann has a brilliant future
Send a message via AIM to John Gutmann Send a message via MSN to John Gutmann Send a message via Yahoo to John Gutmann
Re: The advantage of holonomic drivetrains

Though I think using a holonomic drive, if used efficiently, you an have a great advantage to the opponent. But in the case of this years game I think a team would just get pushed around too much. Unless of course one could find omni wheels with some traction on the rollers.
  #7   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 28-03-2006, 09:21
Tim Baird's Avatar
Tim Baird Tim Baird is offline
Design Ninja
FRC #0126 (Gael Force)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: May 2001
Rookie Year: 1999
Location: Clinton, MA
Posts: 241
Tim Baird has a reputation beyond reputeTim Baird has a reputation beyond reputeTim Baird has a reputation beyond reputeTim Baird has a reputation beyond reputeTim Baird has a reputation beyond reputeTim Baird has a reputation beyond reputeTim Baird has a reputation beyond reputeTim Baird has a reputation beyond reputeTim Baird has a reputation beyond reputeTim Baird has a reputation beyond reputeTim Baird has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Tim Baird
Re: The advantage of holonomic drivetrains

Quote:
Originally Posted by sparksandtabs
Though I think using a holonomic drive, if used efficiently, you an have a great advantage to the opponent. But in the case of this years game I think a team would just get pushed around too much. Unless of course one could find omni wheels with some traction on the rollers.
I agree. Omni wheels would be fantastic this year to zip around the field and collect balls rapidly, but, once you have to stop/slow-down to deliver the balls to the center goal, you're at a huge disadvantage. I've used them in the past on a different team in 2001 when no pushing was involved, and with great success. Perhaps next year...
__________________
Tim Baird
FRC Alum and FRC/FLL Volunteer
Project Engineer @ Nypro

History:
Gael Force 126: 1999-2000
WPI 190: 2001-2004
Gael Force 126: 2005-2010
Event Volunteer Only: 2011-Present
  #8   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 28-03-2006, 20:12
Dan Petrovic's Avatar
Dan Petrovic Dan Petrovic is offline
Got my degree and ready for more!
FRC #0166 (Chop Shop)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Rookie Year: 2004
Location: Merrimack NH
Posts: 1,668
Dan Petrovic has a reputation beyond reputeDan Petrovic has a reputation beyond reputeDan Petrovic has a reputation beyond reputeDan Petrovic has a reputation beyond reputeDan Petrovic has a reputation beyond reputeDan Petrovic has a reputation beyond reputeDan Petrovic has a reputation beyond reputeDan Petrovic has a reputation beyond reputeDan Petrovic has a reputation beyond reputeDan Petrovic has a reputation beyond reputeDan Petrovic has a reputation beyond repute
Re: The advantage of holonomic drivetrains

Quote:
Originally Posted by Starke340
i have also seen this at many regionals. a robot with holonomic drive would have to be so fast that a 4wd or 6wd bot could not stop you. think of Hot team 67 last year (see below). it was similar drive, i witnessed the robot do a pick and roll maneuver that you see in basketball with. you need to have holonomic drive perfectly right to have it work effectively.

Last year the omni-directional drives worked considering the tight space you have to manoeuvre around. There wasn't nearly as much pushing and shoving and there weren't any 3D elements that you had to climb.
  #9   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 28-03-2006, 22:05
Jeremiah Johnson's Avatar
Jeremiah Johnson Jeremiah Johnson is offline
Go VOLS!!
AKA: Budda648
no team (QC Elite)
Team Role: Alumni
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Rookie Year: 2002
Location: Davenport, IA
Posts: 1,476
Jeremiah Johnson has a reputation beyond reputeJeremiah Johnson has a reputation beyond reputeJeremiah Johnson has a reputation beyond reputeJeremiah Johnson has a reputation beyond reputeJeremiah Johnson has a reputation beyond reputeJeremiah Johnson has a reputation beyond reputeJeremiah Johnson has a reputation beyond reputeJeremiah Johnson has a reputation beyond reputeJeremiah Johnson has a reputation beyond reputeJeremiah Johnson has a reputation beyond reputeJeremiah Johnson has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Jeremiah Johnson Send a message via MSN to Jeremiah Johnson
Re: The advantage of holonomic drivetrains

Oh... Witness the BEAST! This was one amazing robot with a crab system. It took quite abit to push them considering they had a holomonic drive. Sure they were pushable but the advantages of their system was greater than the disadvantages.
__________________
Do The Tyler!

XBOX Live Gamertag = theVelvetLie
  #10   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 28-03-2006, 22:21
Ianworld's Avatar
Ianworld Ianworld is offline
AKA Ian Ferguson
AKA: Ian Ferguson
FRC #0694 (StuyPulse)
Team Role: College Student
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Rookie Year: 2002
Location: New York City, Stuyvesant H.S.
Posts: 366
Ianworld has much to be proud ofIanworld has much to be proud ofIanworld has much to be proud ofIanworld has much to be proud ofIanworld has much to be proud ofIanworld has much to be proud ofIanworld has much to be proud ofIanworld has much to be proud ofIanworld has much to be proud of
Send a message via AIM to Ianworld
Re: The advantage of holonomic drivetrains

Many people here are getting confused between holonomic and swerve drives. A holonomic drive has 4 omni wheels at the corner of the robot rotated 90 degrees from each other. This allows the robot to effectively move in any direction and spin in place by powering each of the wheels independently a different amount. The reason why people have said that they are weak and easy to push around is because you can never have more than 50% of your power in any one direction. Along similar lines if the wheels are not being driven the robot can be slid across the ground very easily.

A mechanum drive is very similar to a holonomic drive in that it effectively works the same way. It uses complicated mechanum wheels which allow a robot to place its omni-wheels in a front to back configuration like a regular wheeled robot. It however doesn't pose any advantages other than the easier mounting I believe.

A swerve drive is a very different animal which is what the picture of the HOT bot from last year and the BEAST from this year use. They usually have 4 wheels which are rotatable. Usually driven by a motor the wheels are able to rotate in place allowing the robot to drive in any direction. The advantage of this is that you don't sacrifice much traction while gaining a lot of maneuverability. The downside comes in the form of extra motors, extra hardware and a lot of complexity.

As far as I've seen the competition has been dominated 6 wheel drive set ups and treads. Treads and swerve drives are definitely coming out as the top contenders. Treads for their dominance in terms of strength and immovability and swerve drives for being both maneuverable and strong. However teams with just 6" traction wheels from IFI are going to be doing just great this year.

As for the holonomic drives I've seen, they have all broken down under the stress of the competition. They're tough to make really sturdy and powerful and just don't seem up to snuff this year. Its too bad since they're really starting to become common and a bad year like this will slow their adoption I think.
__________________
Team Website
  #11   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 29-03-2006, 01:42
Eldarion's Avatar
Eldarion Eldarion is offline
Electrical Engineer / Computer Geek
AKA: Eldarion Telcontar
no team (Teamless Orphan)
Team Role: Alumni
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Rookie Year: 2005
Location: Númenor
Posts: 558
Eldarion has a reputation beyond reputeEldarion has a reputation beyond reputeEldarion has a reputation beyond reputeEldarion has a reputation beyond reputeEldarion has a reputation beyond reputeEldarion has a reputation beyond reputeEldarion has a reputation beyond reputeEldarion has a reputation beyond reputeEldarion has a reputation beyond reputeEldarion has a reputation beyond reputeEldarion has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Eldarion Send a message via Yahoo to Eldarion
Re: The advantage of holonomic drivetrains

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ianworld
As for the holonomic drives I've seen, they have all broken down under the stress of the competition. They're tough to make really sturdy and powerful and just don't seem up to snuff this year. Its too bad since they're really starting to become common and a bad year like this will slow their adoption I think.
Yeah, I don't think our team will be doing one next year unless the game really demands it. Oh well, lesson learned.
__________________
CMUCam not working? Tracks sporadically? Try this instead: http://www.falconir.com!
PM me for more information if you are interested (it's open source!).

Want the FIRST Email blasts? See here: http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...ad.php?t=50809

"The harder the conflict, the more glorious the triumph. What we obtain too cheaply, we esteem too lightly; it is dearness only that gives everything its value."
-- Thomas Paine

If it's falling apart it's a mechanical problem. If it's spewing smoke it's a electrical problem.
If it's rampaging around destroying things it's a programming problem.

"All technology is run on 'Magic Smoke' contained within the device. As everyone knows, whenever the magic smoke is released, the device ceases to function."
-- Anonymous

I currently speak: English, some German, Verilog, x86 and 8051 Assembler, C, C++, VB, VB.NET, ASP, PHP, HTML, UNIX and SQL
  #12   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 02-04-2006, 23:02
Dan Petrovic's Avatar
Dan Petrovic Dan Petrovic is offline
Got my degree and ready for more!
FRC #0166 (Chop Shop)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Rookie Year: 2004
Location: Merrimack NH
Posts: 1,668
Dan Petrovic has a reputation beyond reputeDan Petrovic has a reputation beyond reputeDan Petrovic has a reputation beyond reputeDan Petrovic has a reputation beyond reputeDan Petrovic has a reputation beyond reputeDan Petrovic has a reputation beyond reputeDan Petrovic has a reputation beyond reputeDan Petrovic has a reputation beyond reputeDan Petrovic has a reputation beyond reputeDan Petrovic has a reputation beyond reputeDan Petrovic has a reputation beyond repute
Re: The advantage of holonomic drivetrains

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eldarion
Yeah, I don't think our team will be doing one next year unless the game really demands it. Oh well, lesson learned.
I really want the game to demand it cause that's something I want to do. We'd have to sacrifice our awesome 2-speeds, but still.

I'd much rather have a swerve drive but it's much more complex. We have drawings and the concept for it all done because we planned on doing it for this year. After seeing the game we kind of decided against it.
  #13   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 03-04-2006, 01:18
irishninja's Avatar
irishninja irishninja is offline
I count as two people!
AKA: Nathan Bixler
FRC #0694 (Stuypulse)
Team Role: Marketing
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Rookie Year: 2004
Location: New York
Posts: 267
irishninja is a glorious beacon of lightirishninja is a glorious beacon of lightirishninja is a glorious beacon of lightirishninja is a glorious beacon of lightirishninja is a glorious beacon of light
Send a message via AIM to irishninja
Re: The advantage of holonomic drivetrains

Adding to what Ian said this happened with my team this year. We originally were using a tread drive sytem but our tread snapped. By the time we were on our 5th drivetrain and it was Thursday at the NYC regional we swapped for omni wheels in the front, knowing full well we wouldn't be able to get up the ramp.

Consequences of the omni wheels
We were able to turn which let us realign ourselves for shooting very quickly
We were able to be pushed very quickly while shooting
Instead of turning in very small degrees we made huge arcs, although our drivers got that under control
Our omni wheels actually broke
We were able to wreak havoc during the last 20 seconds of the game on the other side stopping from robots getting up the ramp knowing that we couldn't
We usually played backbot

In my opinion the good outweighed the bad, (we came in second), so it was a good tradeoff. If we had been primarily defensive and not played backbot, I'm not so sure the omni wheels would have been a good idea.
__________________


VEX Robotics Blog
  #14   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 29-03-2006, 01:47
KVermilion's Avatar
KVermilion KVermilion is offline
... clearly ...
#0649
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Saratoga, Ca
Posts: 52
KVermilion is infamous around these parts
Re: The advantage of holonomic drivetrains

649 decided on out holonomic drive train, because we had used it last year, and we thought we could step it up, and we did. Keeping the holonomic drive (we call it omnidrive) allowed our mechanical design team to concentrate on our shooter and ball train. If we had not reused our drivetrain scheme from last year, our shooter and ball delivery system would have been likely to suffer. Keeping the holonomic also allowed our programmer and our electronics guy (me) to do some neat stuff, that just wouldn't have happened on a normal drive train.

Simply put, the drive train did not serve us well in quals where one or both of our alliance partners were disabled, or worse, disabled each other. When we had a proper communication and competant alliance partners, it worked well, because we were able to harvest, and line up our shots in a much quicker manner then with a conventional drive train. Of course none of this panned in the QF because were were essentially out there alone, stuck as back bot
  #15   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 29-03-2006, 01:50
KVermilion's Avatar
KVermilion KVermilion is offline
... clearly ...
#0649
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Saratoga, Ca
Posts: 52
KVermilion is infamous around these parts
Re: The advantage of holonomic drivetrains

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ianworld
As for the holonomic drives I've seen, they have all broken down under the stress of the competition. They're tough to make really sturdy and powerful and just don't seem up to snuff this year. Its too bad since they're really starting to become common and a bad year like this will slow their adoption I think.
649 maintained a working holonomic robot though both SVR and Sac-town. Our holonomic drive gave us minimal issues.
Closed Thread


Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Red Advantage ? Krystine T. General Forum 90 16-06-2008 13:41
Holonomic drive and ramp robotaddict Technical Discussion 11 13-01-2006 16:57
CAD/Inventor Drawings for Drivetrains twolf Inventor 10 21-11-2005 12:17
Holonomic Drive Question Jeff Waegelin Technical Discussion 12 20-11-2005 21:23
Holonomic... Greg Perkins Technical Discussion 2 02-02-2005 11:59


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 18:20.

The Chief Delphi Forums are sponsored by Innovation First International, Inc.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © Chief Delphi