Teams missing matches, something must be done

[sanddrag]

This year's game is the most well designed so far. Yet I believe there is still one fatal flaw. Why should those who have their robots in working order and on th field for a match be penalized by those who don't? In nearly every one of the first seven qualifying matches in SoCal there was at least one robot missing from the field (at one point, I heard there were 4 robots missing from the field). We had to play a 3vs2 match on Friday and a 3vs1 match on Saturday ("we" being on the deficient alliance both times). Why should we be scoring points for a team who doesn't have the decency to make their match? Why should we have to pick up their slack? We have trouble, we break things, we have repairs to do, but we care about our matches, we care about our partners, and we do not let them down. Before our matches, I've gone to our partners and literally said, "look, if you want me to jump in there and fix this for you I'd be more than happy to. We need this robot on the field, pronto." But they all see no sense of urgency and think it is no big deal if they miss a match because somebody else will play it for them.


I say that FIRST should do one of three things if a robot is not present on the field.

1. Bring in an alternate, somebody, anybody, who is ready to go at the time. They will be doing it for practice, publicity, and because of GP. They will get no points out of it. The no-show team will still be awarded points, and they should take the alternate out to dinner (the part about dinner would be optional but strongly recommended).
2. Give the no-show team a DQ (this would be an easy incentive to get your but/bot out on the field.)
3. Keep a kitbot on hand for that team to use when they cannot field their own. (teams may abuse this).

My vote goes for #1, but any of these options would be better than the present nothing.

We pay good money to not just field a robot, but to field a robot with two more beside it. Nobody can win this game alone. Give every alliance the fair chance to win that they deserve. How can anybody feel good winning or losing a match 3 on 2 or 3 on 1?

I say 6 robots on the field or no match is to be played. Who's with me?

[Billfred]

From the manual:

A team is declared a no-show, and will be disqualified, if no member of the team is in the alliance station at
the start of the match. Teams that do not show up for a scheduled qualification match will receive zero (0)
Qualifying Points (QP’s) and zero (0) Ranking Points.

I was inspecting a team on Friday morning when they were supposed to be out for a match. They sent a human player to at least avoid the DQ.

Now, you bring up an interesting idea with the surrogates (which are also provided for in the manual). With the short turn-around required in this modern era of FIRST, it might be a little too tight for a team to get in there at the drop of a hat. But if there were an easy way to get a team on a minute's notice, I'd be open to such an idea. (Good luck doing that in Atlanta.)

[sanddrag]

I know the rule has provisions for when there is no one in the alliance station, but a driver does the alliance no good without a robot. The rules need to at the least be adjusted to give a DQ for no robot on the field.

[Dillon Compton]

I disagree;

Alliance selection is RANDOM; all teams are in the same situation. Apparently you had bad luck, but, if your robot is in working order, why not delegate people to go verify and aid your alliance members in getting their robots drivable, at least; complaining on Chief Delphi will only help so much.

We all payed our hefty registration fees, and we all want the opportunity to play our matches; believe me, it sucks MUCH worse to be the team that missed a match then to be the team who is missing an alliance member.

This is another thread about the competitive aspect of FIRST; we've been seeing alot of these lately. I think a problem with FIRST is that it is all to easy to get caught up in the competion; we have been programmed with a win to drive from a very young age, and in moments of stress, dissapointment, and weakness we all slip- to use a hackneyed term, "Just remember that it does not matter whether you win or lose, but how you play the game".

Perhaps this unfortunate alliance structure created some frusturation; you've raised this point in several threads now, so I can see that you must be upset- understandable, you guys had a great robot, and perhaps ranked worse due to these matches. That being said, does it really matter if you win? This whole experience, the entirety of what FIRST represents and promotes, is about inspiring individuals to make something more of themselves and creating a better world; when you consider this, our individual victories seem meaningless. People talk about gracious professionalism alot, and I think it has evolved beyond its' original meaning; no longer does this simply apply to graciously competiting, and being good sports. Gracious Professionalism means coming off the field after playing in a 3 v 1 match, finding the teams that screwed you by not showing up, and making sure that they can get into the next match; usually these teams are the rookies, the underfunded, and those without engineers or other professional help- so help them.

Come on everyone- let us forget our differences, our petty squabbles, and our losses and wins- let us focus on what really matters. Remember what we are here to accomplish- be we students or mentors, engineers or parents- we are here to be inspired or inspire, to teach, to support, to affect a change in ourselves, our peers, and the world; someones future will be affected by all that we do- whether we cure aids, invent a 100% "clean" energy source, or simply excite someone about something (be it robotics, art, science, or simply life ).

I keep saying this- we can do this, so what are we waiting for?

-Dillon Compton
Team 1394

[Matt Attallah]

IMHO - teams should volunteer to be "place setter's but with that team getting a "0" score.

Say team 9999 is suppose to be out there - but 9998 takes their place - 9998 will get NO points but 9999 will get "0" points - that way the teams that are most robust can show off their skills and teams that need help can get the help - and not strand other teams in the dirt!!

[James Dowd]

Maybe FIRST should consider using the kitbot idea previously mentioned.

I was part of the OCCRA Competition in Suburban Detroit while in high school, and they used a "placebo" in some capacity. (I don't remember the exact provisions for its use).

During my year in OCCRA the bot consisted of a drivetrain with a toilet plunger, so it did nothing but play effective defense. Perhaps FIRST could use something of this sort to fill in. I mean a drivetrain that can play defense is better than nothing and will be more entertaining than the alternative.

[Tim Delles]

I see a few things in this thread. A few points that i like are:

• Something does need to be done about robots not making it to the field.

• Why should something be done?

• Is it gracious professional to be so competitive?

First - Something does need to be done about robots not making it to the field.

Yes, something really does need to happen about this. Wether or not it will is another thing. But ideas such as having the kitbot there and even other robots ready to jump in are both great ideas and should be looked into.

Second - Why should something be done?

It should be done because the matches may be random, but if a team is paired with the same team that can't make matches because of one reason or another the team(s) that does/do make the field should not be penalized more than once. In all reality they shouldn't be penalized at all.

1.) Because it then becomes an uneven playing field. And we all know that FIRST is about even playing fields no matter what.
2.) It takes any competitiveness a team has away because 2 robots can't really take on 3.

Third - Is it gracious professional to be so competitive?

Very much so it is. You want to be able to contend against other people so that they can really see how thier robot compairs to others. Once again if it wasn't so competitive would high school kids be so enthusiastic and driven by the program?

just my 2 cents.

Tim

[Gdeaver]

It's a physical game. Bots are going to break. That's the way the game plays this year.

[Rick TYler]

Originally Posted by Tim Delles

Third - Is it gracious professional to be so competitive?

Tim, my friend, I am a mild-mannered 49-year-old mentor who gets a huge kick out of listening to students tell me about the cool features of their robots. I love the enthusiasm, the excitement, and the fevered desire to build the best robot possible. I would gladly help any team in any way I can, up to staying in the pits late to help a team fix a robot, or sending email advice on how to raise money, or even fabricating parts for another team at a tournament. I view all FIRST students as my mentees. Having said all that, when our robot is on the floor the other alliance is the enemy, and I want to see their naked robot hearts beating a tragic tatoo as we graciously and professionally crush them. It must be a guy thing, and you are never too old for that.

[Tim Delles]

Originally Posted by Rick TYler

Tim, my friend, I am a mild-mannered 49-year-old mentor who gets a huge kick out of listening to students tell me about the cool features of their robots. I love the enthusiasm, the excitement, and the fevered desire to build the best robot possible. I would gladly help any team in any way I can, up to staying in the pits late to help a team fix a robot, or sending email advice on how to raise money, or even fabricating parts for another team at a tournament. I view all FIRST students as my mentees. Having said all that, when our robot is on the floor, the other alliance is the enemy, and I want to see their naked robot hearts beating a tragic tatoo as we graciously and professionally crush them. It must be a guy thing, and you are never too old for that.

How true that is. I wonder if the females in FIRST feel the same way

[bbguy5]

Well at smaller regionals, you dont have time in between matches to lets say, fix your robot if it breaks. Thats probably part of the reason teams are missing matches. I'm sure it will be better at nats.

[sanddrag]

Here's my problem that is the underlying issue of this situation and others. While it is true the main purpose of FIRST is to improve our futures and the future of the world, the main thing that helps us do that are the robots. Without the robots, none of us would be here. They are the attracting force that brings us all together. This is a robot building competition. If it weren't, they wouldn't give awards and trophies for it.

We can put together the kit of parts robot and become perfect gracious professionalists without spending a dime. We can drive that robot at school, and save $6000 and not enter a competition, and just go to watch other teams compete, and still be proud of ourselves, and graduate our high school seniors as better citizens than they once were. We can spark a flame in a child's eye with a popsicle stick bridge building competition. I'd bet we could just read "Code Name Ginger" and become better people.

But the truth is we don't. We don't spend months fundraising to just become better people. We don't leave our families behind to become better people. We don't stay awake into the early hours of the morning to become better people. We don't sacrifice our entire lives to not care about the outcome at the regional. We don't sacrifice our personal health to become better people. We do it for the robots; we do it to win. This is a competition, not an exhibition. In a competition, the goal is to win. If you are not trying to win, you are not competing.

We can become better people without all that. But this is a competition. We play our hardest match every match. We put dollars and hours into doing everything humanly possible to win. Why? Because winning is inspirational. Working hard to pursue the goal of winning is inspirational.

We play to win and I'm not afraid to say so. We become better people in the process. This is about passion. Unfortunately, among many teams, it seems to be dwindling.

[sure_smile]

Originally Posted by Tim Delles

How true that is. I wonder if the females in FIRST feel the same way

every day as an extremely enthusiastic 16-year-old co-captain who loves to learn about other robots and help other teams, the feeling of wanting to be the "girlfriend" of the robot who graciously and professionally wins the match is one that i don't think will ever fade

[gobeavs]

Isn't the FIRST experience about overcoming adversity? One of the coolest moments of our Portland regional experience was our alliance being a robot down and still winning the match. Life isn't always fair. Being responsible and passionate we will probably have to pick up others' slack often. Though I understand your frustration.

[OZ_341]

This has always been a part of the FIRST experience.

We expect that this will happen and send out people to check-in with upcoming partners to see if they need help getting ready for the match. (Even if they are veterans with a machine that is better than ours) Sometimes they might need a kit part that you have as a spare or a tool to help make a repair.

In the past we have also sent programmers to all of our Rookie partners to ensure that they have a working autonomous mode. Communicate with your partners often before the match and you will have fewer surprises.

But even with this approach you will be the victim on occasion. Its just another part of the challenge. (IMHO)

Best of luck with the remainder of the regular season.