Teams missing matches, something must be done

[Nuttyman54]

One thing I will never forget this year is Team 114 comming over to us before our match with them and asking how it was going. It was not going well. The entire left side of our drivetrain was not working (sprocket problems). They were on the floor with us looking at the problem. About 5 minutes before the match we told them we could attempt a quick fix to get it back out, but we couldn't guarantee it would survive the match. Their response: Skip the match if you have to, but fix it right the first time.

I agree with others in this thread that having a backup robot/ kitbot (akin to the strechers one year). I also agree that it is not fair to the alliance partners. But you CANNOT assume or expect everyone to have a working robot. They may have gotten slammed in the last match and have to unbend their frame. They may have gotten some magic smoke out of their processor. Whatever the reason, things break, and it tends to be at the worst possible time, and you can't necessarily hold the team responsible.

[laurenlacy]

Originally Posted by Tim Delles

How true that is. I wonder if the females in FIRST feel the same way

as a female i can say for sure YES

[billbo911]

Originally Posted by Rick TYler

Tim, my friend, I am a mild-mannered 49-year-old mentor who gets a huge kick out of listening to students tell me about the cool features of their robots. I love the enthusiasm, the excitement, and the fevered desire to build the best robot possible. I would gladly help any team in any way I can, up to staying in the pits late to help a team fix a robot, or sending email advice on how to raise money, or even fabricating parts for another team at a tournament. I view all FIRST students as my mentees. Having said all that, when our robot is on the floor the other alliance is the enemy, and I want to see their naked robot hearts beating a tragic tatoo as we graciously and professionally crush them. It must be a guy thing, and you are never too old for that.

Rick, If I didn't know better I would say you had plagiarized my thoughts completely, word for word, nothing changed. Well, except I am 4 years your junior.

[Taylor]

I think that as a team, it is your duty to have the robot on the field at all times when it is supposed to be (save the practice day on Thursday). Perhaps the most inspirational moment for me came at this year's BMR when 1319 got half their robot knocked off during autonomous mode. Understandably upset, the team picked up their remains and headed back to the pits. About twenty minutes later, I saw the 1319 bot on the field again. Well, half of it anyway. The team put the drivebase (maybe 2 feet tall) out there and played defense - pushed others around, got on the ramp at the end. Later that afternoon, the complete robot was back on the field, playing to its original capacity.
Long story short, 1319's alliance is headed to Atlanta.
If they had not competed in all rounds, I'm sure their ranking would have been different, they probably would not have been picked where they were, and would not have become champions.
Even if your robot is completely nonfunctional, it still can play a role. Perhaps another team can push it in front of a corner goal to play D. Perhaps it can block a ramp. Being there, getting in the way, mere presence not only gains points, but it increases visibility, awareness, and (in my case) respect.

[mtaman02]

Originally Posted by sanddrag

This is a competition, not an exhibition. In a competition, the goal is to win. If you are not trying to win, you are not competing.

Sandman FIRST was and will never about "Winning". The Reason FIRST has exsisted over the many years is b/c teams have been giving a task to complete in six weeks - whether they are funded or under funded. We all know and have experienced the Six Weeks of what I like to call (excuse my french) Hell. Six Weeks is a very short time to build a masterpiece have it tested and shipped. Whether you have a whole bunch of materials & money or not. Many Teams at the few regionals unpacked their robots into 2000 pieces and have close to 1 Day to build it and have it inspected. When friday comes around they may or may not have that rolling chassis (as my teacher calls it). Its the job of how ever many teams in that particular regional to help this one team get their robot rolling so that it can be at least be defensive. Espicially if you are their alliance partner. Anyone who settles on the belief that they are not obligated to help another troubled team is wrong. If you don't have all the required parts that they may need no problem - remember every little bit helps. I can understand that having one or two less teams on the alliance is unfair but if you at least try to help them out maybe they'll have a better chance of being an effective alliance partner. FIRST has and will always be about Team Work. Without Team work your nothing, Everywhere you go Team Work is applied in everything.

In 2003 I and a couple other alumni went to the NYC Regional w/ our team old team (522) there were many teams w/ either incomplete robots or completely non-functioning robots. Since 522's robot was working and needed very lil maintenance, the alumni and the many who helped build the robot set off into the pits and helped just about every team that needed help whether it was assembling the robot correctly or just helping w/ the necessary adjustments. The teams that we had helped seeded better then they would have just by having a rolling chassis and being able to be out on the field. This had been that teams goal since their inseption and continues to that day and that was to help any and every team that needed it. To me thats Team Work and Gracious Professionalism.

To me that story may or may not apply to this specific thread by does have some basis to whats being discussed. As I said before Its never about winning, Its about Team Work in achieving the task set forth, Its about Being Gracious and Professional to all the surrounding teams, Its about HAVING FUN.
Its what FIRST's all about.


Thats my $2.00 worth.

[Al Skierkiewicz]

Sanddrag,
It is unfortunate for teams not to make it to a match but sometimes it is just going to happen. Someone on every team should be assigned to check up on all robots in your next match(es). I don't know about you, but we don't want to win because the other team didn't show up. We will play and if we win, so be it, but we don't have to like it. And if I help an alliance opponent, you better bet I want them to come out and play their best against me. It is why we showed up in the first place.

[MikeDubreuil]

I thought this was an interesting fact from the Boston Regional from the head referee.
"Even with 14 out of the 44 teams at the Boston regional being rookies not one robot missed a match."

[robochick1319]

I know from experience that making it to matches is not an easy task. In Purdue the matches were literally back to back!! We got back from a match and we were already on our third call for the next match before we could even get the robot on the table to change the battery!!

I totally understand why teams can't make it to matches and don't worry guys! It is possible to win 2 v 3. We did it in Florida when our partner was gone. We just changed our strategy and escaped with a win and decent ranking points.

I appreciate though when teams tell us they can't make it. At least we have time to change our strategy to accommodate. These robots are going to break, whether we like it or not. We just have to make the best of it!

[petek]

I suggest:

1. Find out which teams are struggling on Thursday and help them. Team 237 did this in Chesapeake and made a big difference for several teams. In one case, they worked on a robot right up until match time on Friday; we finished inspection in queuing, and I put the sticker on it as the team placed their robot in the starting box.

2. Make it a point to find out if your alliance partners are having problems as soon as you get your match list Friday morning. If they are, offer your assistance. Not just for the first match, but keep checking with your partners a match or two ahead as the day goes on.

Your scouting organization should be doing these things already. If they aren't here's an opportunity for them to expand their contribution.

[GaryVoshol]

An interesting topic. There were robots that were not able to take the field on Friday morning at both GLR and Detroit.

I think there needs to be a distinction made between bots that break, and bots that never made it in the first place. Those that didn't make a complete/correct robot during 6 weeks of build, and can't complete it on Thurdsay, should not get points for rounds in which they can't compete, until they finally get their bot on the floor. Yes, that means on Friday someone needs to keep track of a list of teams and check them off when they report to the floor. (Although I can see an easy way around that - you put a non-functional robot on the field to avoid a DQ. So I don't know if that rule would work.)

Incidentally, in Q3 at Detroit, 123's bot won the match single-handedly - it can be done.

The suggestion to help your alliance partners is a good one - but it doesn't solve the problem of those early Friday matches. The schedules aren't distributed far enough in advance - teams come to the field for the first several rounds without even having a strategy defined, much less knowing whether or not the partner's robot is functional. If qualifying match schedules could be passed out on Thursday afternoon, teams could begin to consult their alliance partners before pits close Thursday evening, offering help where needed.

[Richard Wallace]

Originally Posted by GaryV1188

... I think there needs to be a distinction made between bots that break, and bots that never made it in the first place. Those that didn't make a complete/correct robot during 6 weeks of build, and can't complete it on Thurdsay, should not get points for rounds in which they can't compete, until they finally get their bot on the floor. Yes, that means on Friday someone needs to keep track of a list of teams and check them off when they report to the floor. (Although I can see an easy way around that - you put a non-functional robot on the field to avoid a DQ. So I don't know if that rule would work.)

The lead queuer normally keeps a list of robots that have not reported for queuing calls.

Some non-functional robots are not eligible to be put on the the field because they have not passed inspection, or because they have been damaged in a previous match, requiring repair and re-inspection.

Regarding a rules change to treat robots that fail to report for queuing because they have not passed initial inspection differently from those that fail to report because of damage during a previous match: the effect would be to apply a different penalty for failure to complete robot fabrication prior to the event. Such a penalty might be unfair to teams that have a non-compliant robot due to factors they cannot control, such as damage during shipping.

As currently written, compliance with the fabrication schedule rules (<R15> through <R20>) cannot be directly monitored by FIRST staff or volunteers.

[Jherbie53]

Originally Posted by robochick1319

I know from experience that making it to matches is not an easy task. In Purdue the matches were literally back to back!! We got back from a match and we were already on our third call for the next match before we could even get the robot on the table to change the battery!!

I totally understand why teams can't make it to matches and don't worry guys! It is possible to win 2 v 3. We did it in Florida when our partner was gone. We just changed our strategy and escaped with a win and decent ranking points.

I appreciate though when teams tell us they can't make it. At least we have time to change our strategy to accommodate. These robots are going to break, whether we like it or not. We just have to make the best of it!

I'm sure that was the same for just about every team. At West Michigan last year we had it twice that we needed to go to queuing straight from a match.

We all want to compete, so helping your alliance partners is what everyone should do. I'm thinking of not helping scout to wander the pits at West Michigan, for the very reason of helping other teams. Of course we want to win the robot part of the competition, but I'm looking forward to the Woodie Flowers and Chairmans awards this weekend even more.

[RoboMom]

Originally Posted by petek

I suggest:

1. Find out which teams are struggling on Thursday and help them. Team 237 did this in Chesapeake and made a big difference for several teams. In one case, they worked on a robot right up until match time on Friday; we finished inspection in queuing, and I put the sticker on it as the team placed their robot in the starting box.

2. Make it a point to find out if your alliance partners are having problems as soon as you get your match list Friday morning. If they are, offer your assistance. Not just for the first match, but keep checking with your partners a match or two ahead as the day goes on.

Your scouting organization should be doing these things already. If they aren't here's an opportunity for them to expand their contribution.

At Chesapeake, (15 rookies) we handed out sheets first thing asking who needed help and who was willing to help with specifics that could be circled. We circulated the pits every hour, doing followup, mixing and matching needs and wants. Team 237 was a great help, but so were about 10 other teams. One of the keys is prodding the teams to get at least a partial inspection early on Thursday. 24 had not passed inspection at 4 pm on Thursday, but all had on Friday morning. (and thanks to Pete for being so flexible!)
At Boston, we did the same thing. (14 rookies) Once again, there were 24 teams at 4pm on Thursday that had not passed. By Friday, they all had. There were about 5 teams helping one of the rookies at one point. As I explained to all the rookies, "your job is try not to be a burden to your alliance partner if you end up first tomorrow. You must get inspected. After you pass inspection, you can then work on whatever cool thing you are trying to finish."

This is the magic of FIRST.

[Wetzel]

For those who have not heard, or don't remember, I point you to Professor Gradys lecture on the Placebo.

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...hlight=placebo

Wetzel

[Richard Wallace]

Originally Posted by RoboMom

As I explained to all the rookies, "your job is try not to be a burden to your alliance partner if you end up first tomorrow. You must get inspected. After you pass inspection, you can then work on whatever cool thing you are trying to finish."

This is the magic of FIRST.

Well said, RoboMom!

At STL, I say something similar to teams that have not passed inspection at 4 pm on Thursday. After 5 pm, pit admin starts announcing the numbers of teams that have not reported to the scale for initial inspection, and asking those who are able to provide help to do so.

Friday morning, I visit the pits of teams that are allied in early matches (esp. matches that require queuing before opening ceremony) with those who have not passed inspection, advise them of their alliance partner's inspection status, and recommend they try to help out.

In my three years as STL lead inspector we've never had a robot fail to complete inspection before the first qualifying match.