Teams missing matches, something must be done

[SirLancelot]

Originally Posted by Tim Delles

I wonder if the females in FIRST feel the same way

I definitely feel that way--we get into the stands after scurrying to get the bot fixed two minutes before the match and don't want to see anyone messing with it. If they do, they become the enemy--until we're on their alliance, that is--and it's up to our valiant drivers to crush them. In the most graciously professional way, that is.

~Anna

[KenWittlief]

The only solution to the problem of AWOL robots in matches is to go back to one on one games. No alliances.

Having a stand-in robot for a team that is having problems will put pressure on them to let the pitch-robot stand in for them, even when they could have their bot on the field. The teams with robot issues would end up sitting on the bench for the entire weekend (hey, that sounds familiar - just like HS sports!)

[Warren Boudreau]

Sandrag,

Teams missing matches has always and probably will remain an issue. After all, as long as you are at the competition you might as well try to win.

Even if a team would field their robot just to take up space on the field and field a human player to help out with ball handling, it would be a help. A couple of years ago, we had a match with a team that wasn't planning on fielding their robot. I begged/coerced them into just placing the robot on the field. It's presence was enough for us to win the match.

I guess what I'm saying is that you need to convince those teams that are not planning on fielding a robot for a match to contribute whatever they can to the match. Be it a dead robot or live human player.

The only fair way to replace missing robots, would be for FIRST to build and drive a surrogate robot for teams missing a match. Of course, the team would get no points. Even that idea has it's drawbacks.

[MrForbes]

I think the missing matches thing is a non-issue. If your team has a very good, competitive robot, you will rise in the standings. And if the odds really do play against you in the matches, at least you will be at the top of the other teams' scouting lists.

One thing that I notice lacking in this thread is the mention of helping the teams on the opposing alliance get working. A few times Friday we helped other teams with parts/tools so they could get going again.....and then played against them. It's a great feeling to know that you helped them out!

I agree that it is a robot competition, but it's one where we all win if we all do our best.

[mtaman02]

Originally Posted by GaryV1188

The suggestion to help your alliance partners is a good one - but it doesn't solve the problem of those early Friday matches. The schedules aren't distributed far enough in advance - teams come to the field for the first several rounds without even having a strategy defined, much less knowing whether or not the partner's robot is functional. If qualifying match schedules could be passed out on Thursday afternoon, teams could begin to consult their alliance partners before pits close Thursday evening, offering help where needed.

While this is a very good idea theres an issue with this and for years has not been resolved and personally I really think that its time FIRST asked HATCH to help come up with a way so that all the matches can be scheduled before the regional (HATCH = The software they use for IFI Comms, Scoring, Awards Listing Rankings etc.) Currently the problem is that you can only have one open match schedule at a time or so I have seen. Obviously practice schedules comes first. After thursdays matches have been run through then a qualifying schedule can be created. I mean maybe you can have 2 open schedules at a time but I doubt it.

And Instead of having the schedules ready by thursday afternoon how about having schedules when the regional comes to being one week away and have it mailed to the competing teams. How well would this work instead of cutting it short by half a day.

[Jherbie53]

Originally Posted by mtaman02

While this is a very good idea theres an issue with this and for years has not been resolved and personally I really think that its time FIRST asked
the HATCH (The software they use for IFI Comms, Scoring, Awards Listing Rankings etc.) The Problem is that you can only have one open Match Schedule at a time. Obviously Practice Schedules comes first. After thursdays matches have been run through then a Qualifying schedule can be created. I mean maybe you can have 2 open schedules at a time but I doubt it. Instead of having the schedules ready by thursday afternoon how about having schedules when the regional comes to being one week away and have it mailed to the competing teams. How well would this work instead of cutting it sort by half a day.

That sounds like a good idea. Having the match schedule on the Monday before would allow everyone to see who the play with or against, and help them fix any problems that they might have. Another reason its good is that you can scout better and have more strategy during qualifying matches.

Anyhoo, back to the real topic. Robots breaking is a part of the game. Not having everyone out there is not good, but it happens. Finally, I think that you don't get any points if you don't have a human player out during the match, but I think that might of changed from past years.

[KenWittlief]

the way FIRST has it set up now, its almost as if they want us to help anyone who needs help

whether they will be alliance partners, or opponents, or they will not be in the same matches with your team at all!

If FIRST put out the match schedule for the entire event a week before, isnt that saying "only help those who will help you win matches?"

[J. Stofflett]

Sometimes it works to your advantage at the Buckeye we competed in the 1st qualifying match and one of our alliance partners didn’t make it. We ended up winning the match and all the judges saw it happen. We went on to win the General Motors Industrial Design Award on Saturday. We felt like we had a good design but this got the judges attention from the start. In Detroit in the 3rd qualification match again with all the judges sitting at the head table we took the field to find that both our partners this time hadn’t made it out of the pits. We ended up winning this match and the GM Industrial Design award again.

[mtaman02]

I don't think so, By putting out the match schedule earlier it gives you a heads up on how to dispense the scouting crews, Either which way the schedules will differ from Practice and Qualifying ( I think I mentioned that both schedules would be printed out in advance ) so you would still be able to help all the teams there.Than again I could be wrong if thats the way it sounds then maybe I'll scrap this idea and then come up with another.

[CircularLogic]

It seems that SandDrag's point is that its not fair that an alliance should have to suffer a loss because one team cannot make it out to the field. With this type of system, a team who would have easily made a top notch seeding otherwise, could get screwed by having several odd-man matches.


Lets just get something out of the way right now. These regional competitions are not fair.

The following things are not fair about them

1. The random alliance matches. In particular, my team did not play with a single team that made it to the final rounds meaning that our alliances never really had some of the strongest robots on the field. During some matches the line up was three great shooters vs. three decent dumpers. Was it a fair match to being with? No but thats the nature of the game.

2. Some robots dont make it to the field for their matches. My team had 6 losses at SBPLI. Two of those losses, we only had two robots on our alliance and in one match, we were the only robot that worked on our alliance. It wasnt fair that in a match against some of the best teams there, we were the only ones to work. Yes, those matches affected our standings severely (a possible 9-3 record is much better that 6-6). But its the nature of the game.

3. Some teams have virtually unlimited resources with lots of professionals to help with design and buildings while other teams have to build their robot in a physics classroom with little more than hand tools and have to raise every bit of their money through selling candy, etc. At that point the prowess of the team members are not the deciding factor of the relative success of their robot. Its not fair. But its the nature of the game.


FIRST isnt about winning. There are far too many inequities to make it about winning. FIRST is about pride. Its about the pride that you take in your robot, no matter how bad it may look or to what degree it functions. It is about the pride you take in your team for uniting behind a common goal no matter what type of awards you win. Its about the pride that you have for devoting your time and resources to helping teams that may very well be your opponent in the next match.


I dont compete to win prizes, I compete to win Pride.

[mtaman02]

Originally Posted by CircularLogic

I dont compete to win prizes, I compete to win Pride.

Amen to that my friend

[Dan Petrovic]

You are right. Something must be done.

However, nothing will be done.

FIRST challenges the students to make a functional and robust robot. Obviously, some teams do it better than others and robots break. That is all a part of the challenge.

Why do you think there is a 6 week time period? Why do you think there is a 120 lb weight limit, minus battery and bumpers of course. Why do you think there is a 28x38x50 size limit? It's all a part of the challenge. Robots breaking is not only a challenge for the alliance partners, but a challenge for the team with the broken robot.

Nothing is learned without challenges and mistakes. A missing alliance partner helps you learn how to accommodate for the detriment.

You are right. Teams who can put a robot on the field every match shouldn't suffer. But the teams with the broken robots are suffering as well. It's not like they were off having lunch while their fully functional robot sits in their pit.