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Unread 03-04-2006, 16:58
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Re: Can Wireless Video Cameras Be Used?

Wow,
this is an old thread re-surfaced!

1) You can do almost anything you want to do during off-field practice runs and even during Thursday practice days.

2) You can duct-tape a mini camcorder to your robot to get 'shooter-eye' view video for use later on (for strategy or just for fun as highlights video). My team did this with my Sony mini-DV camcorder and the robot almost face-planted onto the camera before tipping back upright! Yikes. It was hilarious. We had another camcorder running, so I'll do the split-screen video for the highlights footage.

3) If you try-out some sort of wireless "spy-cam" be aware of the following.
a) It surely CAN'T be used to provide any feedback to the drivers
b) The receiver also can't be in the stands where you shout to the driver "turn left" .....or something like that.
c) Any onboard camera will be susceptable to machine vibrations as well as on-board interference from motors, etc. I was told that the nanny-cams that run at 2.4GHz are problematic at best.
d) The FIRST control system operates on 900MHz spectrum I believe and there are also a lot of stuff that will create havoc with the 2.4GHz spectrum. Some of the newer pinhole spy cameras operate at the 1.2GHz spectrum

4) THEREFORE.....at the 2006 nationals, our team may play with an on-board 1.2GHz camera during practice rounds just for fun.

But, absolutely NO CAMERAS should be on-board during actual matches for ANY reason. It just opens up too many "what if" possibilities.
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Unread 03-04-2006, 17:00
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Re: Can Wireless Video Cameras Be Used?

By the way, what would be even better than "on-board" cameras for the 2006 Aim High, would be two small cameras mounted above the high goals pointed downwards like basketball games. Even hockey games now have "wired-up" the goalies from their perspective.....

I did get to witness the on-board camera used in Toronto during 2005 regional, but still think that it should NOT have been permitted at all during an actual match......

Having two "fixed" camera angles plus the two high-goal camera angles will give the video producers plenty to do to get the point of th egame across to the audience.
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Unread 03-04-2006, 20:20
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Re: Can Wireless Video Cameras Be Used?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dhitchco
By the way, what would be even better than "on-board" cameras for the 2006 Aim High, would be two small cameras mounted above the high goals pointed downwards like basketball games. Even hockey games now have "wired-up" the goalies from their perspective.....

I did get to witness the on-board camera used in Toronto during 2005 regional, but still think that it should NOT have been permitted at all during an actual match......

Having two "fixed" camera angles plus the two high-goal camera angles will give the video producers plenty to do to get the point of th egame across to the audience.
I'm curious about your reasoning for being so adamant about "no cameras for any reason" during a match. Our camera was a record to SD card device so there was no issue with interference or alternate controll mechanism. My thought is that it falls into the category of "decoration" with respect to its mounting on the robot during competition.
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Unread 04-04-2006, 07:31
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Re: Can Wireless Video Cameras Be Used?

If on board cameras to internal media were mounted during competition matches, they should have been included in your robot weight. No matter what wireless frequency or modulation is used, the system must be cleared with FIRST before the competition. AND the main battery and the backup battery can be the only electrical power source on the robot.
<R51> The only legal main source of electrical energy on the robot is the 12VDC non-spillable lead acid battery
provided in the Kit of Parts. That 12V battery is the Exide type EX18-12. The ES18-12 battery, purchased
through your local Exide supplier as a spare, is identical and may also be used. You may use other equivalent
type 12V batteries, but only during the Thursday practice rounds.
The 7.2v “backup” battery is considered an integral part of the Robot Controller, and may not be used for any
other purpose.
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Unread 04-04-2006, 08:28
Jack Jones Jack Jones is offline
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Re: Can Wireless Video Cameras Be Used?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Al Skierkiewicz
If on board cameras to internal media were mounted during competition matches, they should have been included in your robot weight. No matter what wireless frequency or modulation is used, the system must be cleared with FIRST before the competition. AND the main battery and the backup battery can be the only electrical power source on the robot.
<R51> The only legal main source of electrical energy on the robot is the 12VDC non-spillable lead acid battery
provided in the Kit of Parts. That 12V battery is the Exide type EX18-12. The ES18-12 battery, purchased
through your local Exide supplier as a spare, is identical and may also be used. You may use other equivalent
type 12V batteries, but only during the Thursday practice rounds.
The 7.2v “backup” battery is considered an integral part of the Robot Controller, and may not be used for any
other purpose.
If that is the way the rule is to be interpreted, then it is yet another example of how rules become needless roadblocks to creativity.

If an on-board camera, wireless or otherwise, is used to record and later promote a FIRST event, then where is harm or foul in it having a self contained battery? Those batteries would not be an adjunct to "the only legal main source of electrical energy." The rule is about integral parts of the robot; the ones that provide power and have direct impact on the competition. It is certainly a stretch to apply it to anything else.

The forward to the General Design & Safety Rules says:
“When reading these Rules, please use technical common sense (engineering thinking) rather than a lawyer’s interpretation. Try to understand the reasoning behind a rule.”


We could have them remove the AA batteries and use a custom designed supply that draws power from the the Exide. But what would be the purpose in that other than to make them lawyer their way into getting it done? It would, in fact, be contrary to this engineer's thinking in that it adds a frivolous layer of complexity.

I can see how we'd not want to see a bunch of C cells duct taped together to power some non-functional neon under glows; but to prohibit a few AAs in a palm sized DVD recorder makes no sense at all.

Last edited by Jack Jones : 04-04-2006 at 08:33.
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Unread 04-04-2006, 08:37
Dave Flowerday Dave Flowerday is offline
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Re: Can Wireless Video Cameras Be Used?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Jones
If that is the way the rule is to be interpreted, then it is yet another example of how rules become needless roadblocks to creativity.
I agree with you that the rule does put up a roadblock to creativity, however there is no interpretation necessary. It's spelled out clear as day on the inspection checklist (though I guess you could argue about whether or not it's a "non-functional decoration"):

Quote:
If the decorations require electrical power, only the robot’s Exide12V battery can be used. The decoration must be protected via either 20A or 30A circuit breaker and cannot interfere with other control system components.
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Unread 04-04-2006, 08:43
Jack Jones Jack Jones is offline
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Re: Can Wireless Video Cameras Be Used?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Flowerday
I agree with you that the rule does put up a roadblock to creativity, however there is no interpretation necessary. It's spelled out clear as day on the inspection checklist (though I guess you could argue about whether or not it's a "non-functional decoration"):
I knew that. And, IMO, the inspection checklist misinterpreted the rule.
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Unread 04-04-2006, 09:13
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Al Skierkiewicz Al Skierkiewicz is offline
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Re: Can Wireless Video Cameras Be Used?

Jack and Dave,
I brought this up simply because it was interpreted that way in the past. Cameras being non-functional decorations, that is. I personally would love to see more video coming from a robot camera for crowd appeal. Often cameras are used in kit form and the power supply is pretty suspect. It is still necessary for inspector to see how the camera is mounted on the robot. As you know, parts that are not securely attached become missiles in a defensive game. So we need to know that parts on robots are securely attached and will not injure participants or damage other robots.
Consumer grade cameras are now often supplied with Nickel Metal Hydride batteries which pose a serious fire threat if damaged and exposed to the air. For that reason, I would defend the single supply rule in most cases. I know this sounds a little strange, but why would anyone want to subject an expensive component to the abuse suffered during a normal match if it's only purpose was to bring back "cool" pictures. Recording media that uses spinning mechanical systems (video heads and hard disks) as part of the record process, suffer from centrifugal force issues that affect the recording process.
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Unread 05-04-2006, 14:19
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Re: Can Wireless Video Cameras Be Used?

An on-board camera with it's own on-board power source and on-board internal storage media could be "interpreted" as a robot "decoration".

I just think that, at the current time, this "creativity" hasn't been well-thought out by FIRST, and untill a real rule is put in place which comprehends all the scenarios, it should not be allowed.

After all, what's the purpose of an on-board camera?
a) for fun in the highlights video?
b) For aiming strategy for the 3-point goal?
In either case, this can all be done on the practice field or during practice rounds, not full competitive matches.....

Obviously, if FIRST really "chews" on this problem, then
a) the weight of this on-board device must be included in the robot
b) the device will need to be inspected to ensure that it really is not providing feedback to the drivers during the match....

By the way, there's a separate thread on this forum about NOT changing the on-field video screen except for a field overview view (no close-ups, no on-board views, no tops-down views).....Then how come a football game switches camera angles about every 7 seconds!

Can you say "Pandora's Box"......? Just my humble opinion as a videographer.
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Unread 13-04-2006, 15:37
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Smile Re: Can Wireless Video Cameras Be Used?

The issue of having a camera on the robot has been extensively discussed so here's my comment:

The question is a good one and you may be suprised at the answer. What is the answer? - You may never know unless you ask! By asking I mean going to the official Q&A fora and state all the parameters of your question!

I may have missed something but I just looked at the site and there is not a single question concerning this issue so it just begs to be asked.

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Unread 18-04-2006, 20:21
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Exclamation Re: Can Wireless Video Cameras Be Used?

<UPDATE> The question has been asked!.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Godzilla!
The issue of having a camera on the robot has been extensively discussed so here's my comment:

The question is a good one and you may be suprised at the answer. What is the answer? - You may never know unless you ask! By asking I mean going to the official Q&A fora and state all the parameters of your question!

I may have missed something but I just looked at the site and there is not a single question concerning this issue so it just begs to be asked.

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Ron - I'll get our official rep to do that. The Chief Inspector in Las Vegas said that they would be running the issue up through the first hierarchy because it was an issue that caused much discussion there.

Team 1425 and Team 8 requested, and eventually received permission to use cameras recording to SD memory cards.

The robot's point of view can be very interesting.

Last edited by ericand : 19-04-2006 at 17:21. Reason: UPDATE
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Unread 19-04-2006, 01:28
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Re: Can Wireless Video Cameras Be Used?

Eric,

If you have the videos I'd love to see them. Send them to me at work if possible.

Ellery
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Unread 20-04-2006, 13:08
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Re: Can Wireless Video Cameras Be Used?

Is the FIRST QA forum down? How do we ask?

I got the QA Forum information for our team and logged in to ask my question in the Robot rules section. The forum let me start a new thread and seemed to accept my question. However, the question never showed up in the forum. Am I missing something? Does the question need to be reviewed by a moderator before showing up? Could there be some problem with my post such that the forum is silently rejecting it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Godzilla!
The issue of having a camera on the robot has been extensively discussed so here's my comment:

The question is a good one and you may be suprised at the answer. What is the answer? - You may never know unless you ask! By asking I mean going to the official Q&A fora and state all the parameters of your question!

I may have missed something but I just looked at the site and there is not a single question concerning this issue so it just begs to be asked.

Teams?


Ron Webb
Head Ref Atlanta

Last edited by ericand : 20-04-2006 at 13:10. Reason: formatting
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Unread 20-04-2006, 14:41
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Re: Can Wireless Video Cameras Be Used?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ericand
Is the FIRST QA forum down? How do we ask?

I got the QA Forum information for our team and logged in to ask my question in the Robot rules section. The forum let me start a new thread and seemed to accept my question. However, the question never showed up in the forum. Am I missing something? Does the question need to be reviewed by a moderator before showing up? Could there be some problem with my post such that the forum is silently rejecting it?
Your question will not show up on the FIRST Q&A forum until it is reviewed by a moderator and the folks at FIRST write the answer. Given that they are all preparing for Atlanta right now, it may or may not get answewed prior to the Championships.
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Unread 21-04-2006, 13:47
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Re: Can Wireless Video Cameras Be Used?

If you want to insure that your question gets answered - please go to the moderated section of the fora and there is a thread for questions for the Championships.

Ron
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