The promise of college for our generation

[JoeXIII'007]

Just want to get my 2 cents on this topic, for even though I'm still a Junior in high school, I have a sister who is going to be graduating from Eastern Michigan University with a degree in Business this year, and is on this very familiar track.

I skimmed through some of the responses on here, and someone said that we are being spoon fed in High School.

Personally, I think it is worse. Were not ONLY being spoon fed, but I believe our minds that know what to do for a future (college, tech school, whatever) are being brutally overidden by scenes and images of the 'good life.'

For example, instead of looking at a college for a good education in a field of choice, I fear more and more people think that going to college will automatically grant them a future, and more are choosing one that has a good lifestyle more than anything because of such a false vision.

There are more examples, such as companies making $$$$ that could be spent on future education, but instead its in trade for class rings, prom outfits, and senior pictures. But, I hope you get my point.

So in short, I believe that high schools need to start allowing all options for the future of any student, and not discourage those who chose an alternative to the traditional high school => liberal arts college => career route OR the route with the best possible lifestyle. The real world has many real possibilities, and to shut ourselves to one route is simply wrong.

Sorry if I was redundant in any area.

-Joe

PS: If this could not be any more coincidental, I wonder what could. 5 reasons to skip college from MSNBC and Forbes.

[Tyler Olds]

Originally Posted by Ken Leung

There are a lot of student in college who are there without knowing what they want to do, and what they are going to do after getting out of college. There are a lot of students who even before going to college, already have trouble figuring out what their future is. There are a lot of students who struggle in college without knowing what they are struggling for.
.................................................. .....................................
I am asking this question in a very general way, because a lot of FIRST students go to college knowing what they want. But I don't see the same for a lot of other students (ie. students who haven't participated in FIRST).

Ken, amazing post, and a great topic.

I went into college knowing exactly what I was going to do in life, which was to be a tech ed. teacher. However, I found out that while I still would like to teach some day, that it is not for me right now. I actually ended up dropping out of college because I was so confused on what to do with life and felt like I was wasting my time and money by being there.

It has been a year now, and I feel that this break from the education realm is actually exactly what I needed to get my life straightened out. Experiencing what it is like to work a dead end job full time has really given me the perspective of what I do not want to do with my life. With a little luck and some help through FIRST. I am going back to college next year with an attended major in broadcasting. It is amazing to think that even after being graduated for two years, FIRST can still help you out in life.

If I would have stayed in college not knowing what I was going to do for my major and with the rest of my life, I do not believe that I would have found my "calling". So here is my question: Do teachers/ education administration officials tell you to go to college and to stay in college when you have no clue what you are going to do just to make the university more money? As much as this seems like a cruel and evil thing to do, I believe that there is some truth to it. Believe it or not, it is a business, and ask any business owner(s) the true meaning of having a business and they will tell you that it is money. If they say otherwise than they are most likely lying to you (this is excluding a lot of mom and pop shops, I am talking more corporations here).
Yes, even public universities are businesses, that is why they have administration. They are there to recruit students and make the money to keep their college going.

To answer your question Ken, I believe that when I found out that my dreams and goals changed, that I feel extra hard. Yes there are guidance counselors, and some of them are very helpful, but it just isn’t enough at times. Their answer was to stay in college and that I should find something that interests me.

[Ken Leung]

I would like to make the following observation to try to explain why what I observered earlier is happening. I would like to see if you guys agree.

#1 A student cannot be told to have a successful education, it MUST come from within that student's mind.

Ultimately everyone is in charge of their own life, and yet, through out a child's education, he or she is told what to learn, when to learn, where to learn, how to learn, and why. As soon as they enter high school, they are immediately faced with a 4 year plan of courses they have to take if they want to graduate high school and continue in a higher education institution. Along the way they have to do well in standardized testing, get good grades, as well as take AP classes and do as much out-of-school activities as possible if they were to have a chace at some of the more competitive schools.

I do not deny that there are necessary things in school that you must learn in order to be a successful human being. But by the time students are ready for colleges, they have been drilled by their education so long that that method of learning is the only one they know. I am, of course, making generalization here. There are many students who are able to decide for themselves what to learn, when to learn, where to learn, how to learn, and why. But, I do not see that anywhere near the emphasis of our education system. Students weren't told to think about why they should learn as much as the what, where, how, and when, and I believe that's a major problem.

Why you learning, to me, should be just as important a pirority any other things they teach in school.


#2 Students are different and each require different pace and different method when they are learning.

There should be no doubt about this. Some students are ready for college before they graduate high school. Some aren't ready even after they are already done with it. It is aparently to me that not every one is suitable for the whole elementary-middle-high school then a degree in a 4 year college path. It is aparent to me that some maybe more successful in a technical school or a job training school, while other will be great to move onto a master degree or a PhD. It is aparently to me that some need time to figure out what they want to do with their lives and some need more opportunity to see what paths they can take, while others do know their path since they were 12.

If it is aparent to me, why is it not aparently to the rest of the world? Why is the education system in general seems to only work for one particular kind of student and that kind of student only?

Well, I do know why. It's because it is expensive. Too expensive to have a small class room with teachers paying more attentions to individual students, it is too expensive to have a flexible system for many types of students, and it is too expensive to be doing all these things to inspire a child's mind and show him or her the huge world out there. It is also too expensive when school has to do a job that the parents, the government, the culture, and the world should've been doing in the first place. School cannot afford to do everything necessary to prepare a student for lives as an adult, yet the general idea is that that's what their job is.

#3 There are just too much to learn.

As soon as a student starts school, he or she must hit the ground running and try to keep up with the pace. In high school, you have to learn English, math, science (Physics, Chemistry, Biology), history, US government, foreign language, the arts, economics, physical education, and many more.

There are lots of important things to learn there, and one must be exposed to as many kind of classes as possible in order to gain a boarder prespective to the world out there. Only, that's not exactly what happened. Because there are so many things to learn, you must keep your head down and get ready for cramming and testing as soon as you start. There are so many information that you must hurry to start studying for everything before you have a chance to take a breath and look at what you are learning and why. There are too many to learn that there's no boarder prespective of all of these classes anymore.

Of course, it only gets worse at a college. Ever seen the amounts of degrees you can get at a pretty decent 4 years college? Arts and humanities, social science, and science and engineering. Each brach ready to grant you 1 of 100 degree if you know exactly what you want. Of course, within each degree there are emphasis, different ways you can approach the degree.


All these are very important. But what about the world outside? What about the fact that you can't learn everything and that there is no text book or standardized testing or answers in the back of the book when you go out? What about there is no right answers in many things in this world?

There are way too much to learn, and that's not including the fact that there is no set curriculum, no test, no book, no grades good enough to make you successful beyond those things.

That's the end game for education, isn't it? What happens after school when you are out there in the world picking up the burden the previous generation left behind for you? The goal is to have students ready to face the world and lead our society into the future after their education, isn't it?

I read Paul Graham regularly and this thread reminded me of one of his essays, How to Do What You Love. It has a lot of insight on the relationship between work and fun (not mutally exclusive).

[mhayon]

That's interesting, we were talking about something similar in my Advanced College Essay class. Part of the reason we have so many students in universities, apparently, is that after the baby boomer generation, there were a lot of people going to college post-war. This caused universities to expand. After that generation, there have always been many spots open at universities, and it has evolved into a bidding game-- the marketing aspect has gone up, and its no longer about receiving a true education. I don't know if this is true or not, but this is not the only view.

Taking this stance, my professor then commented "there are a lot of people at college who shouldn't be." I guess that's why more and more students are confused: there are more students in college just because they're expected to be, and less that are here for the pure pursuit of education.

Or maybe college opens up so many options that kids are in so much amazement that they don't know what to do. Maybe they wanted to explore one thing, but as time went on, something else looked pretty desirable.

About high school- a couple of my college buddies agree that high school was harder than what we're seeing in college. But I think it was important, kind of like, if you can do that, you can do anything. Also, I learned a lot of stuff I didn't want to learn in high school. But, there was some interesting stuff. I think high school is necessary to force all that stuff down your throat for the few things you do find useful, the few things you do remember, the few things you do want to explore.

[Robyn Needel]

Originally Posted by Gdeaver

I went through this with my son who is now finishing his second semester in ME. You don't go to college to learn how to do a job - thats what technical institutes are for and most in this country suck. I told my son that you go to college to learn how to learn. In high school you're more or less spoon fed the basic subjects. You're told exactly what to read and you're lectured in class. The tests are nothing more than a chance to regurgitate the info back. In college you should be practicing the skill of research. By the time you graduate you should be able to teach your self. This is important because the one constant in your future is change. If you can't adapt and constantly re-educate you're self you won't thrive and prosper in whatever career you choose. You have 4 years of not having to deal with the real world. Find yourself, have a good time, explore your horizons, etc. and learn how to learn.

Hear, hear! I experienced a tough time finding myself in college, luckily ended up graduating only a semester behind (and in a field not even remotely like what I thought I wanted)...and my husband also had to find his way. So when it was time for our kids to choose their college paths, we told them up front that they would probably have some setbacks along the way, but that college gives one the tools you need to succeed in the world of work no matter what path you choose ultimately. We have found that college admissions people love undecided students, because they are open to new ideas and make confident decisions about a major faster than those students who come in so sure of their choices. Engineering poses a challenge, because in most schools, you must start with the heavy math and science right away...but if a student tries engineering and doesn't like it, it's easy enough to transfer the extra tech courses into elective slots for another major.

And I agree with what's been said before, not all kids should go to college - some don't want to right away, some just aren't cut out for the academic world, some have other plans for whatever their reasons...but that's ok. We desperately need service technicians, auto and other mechanics, and trades people in all fields - here is where students on FIRST teams have an edge, they have a lot of the skills that are needed out in the "real" world.

[JaneYoung]

This is just a different perspective -
We have an 85 year old student at the university where I work. She has been enrolled for the 23 years that I know of and has amassed degrees and hours that I can only guess at.

She will joke and say the reason she stays enrolled is for the student health insurance. While there may be some truth to that, I think she uses the insurance to help her with the extra oxygen tanks that she needs while she follows her sherpa to higher learning.

She broadens the horizons for her classmates and for her professors every year and my thinking is that her high school education was probably a lot different than the high school programs that proliferate now.

[Ken Leung]

Originally Posted by Jane

This is just a different perspective -
We have an 85 year old student at the university where I work. She has been enrolled for the 23 years that I know of and has amassed degrees and hours that I can only guess at.

That is exceptionaly extraordinary! I can only hope that my mind is still lucid by the time I reach at age... That is an amazing way to live life.

[Robyn Needel]

Originally Posted by eugenebrooks

The goal of college is to get an education in a field of study that interests you. In the end, you likely have to go out and get a job so it is useful if the education serves this purpose as well, but if the education itself is not interesting to you a change of venue is in order.

One possible change of venue can be a change of major if you find that an alternative major stokes a fire in you. If your major is not doing that for you it is likely that any follow-on employment in the same field may not stoke a fire either, so a change in venue is all the more important.

If the rigors of college are something that you find unattractive enough to complain about, you should really consider an alternative. There are many career oriented "schools of specialization" that require only one or two years and that provide an attractive employment venue afterwards. There is nothing wrong with these alternatives if they are a fit for you.

I spent a great deal of time building electronic circuits as a teenager 35 years ago (many of these circuits used tubes), and went to college with a passion to become an electrical engineer. In spite of nearly straight As, I was quite bored with the general engineering curriculum and switched to Physics at the end of my first year. I learned, in college, that what I really had a passion for was understanding how physical things worked and I have stuck with it through a Phd, and ever since.

Actively hunt for your passion in college. Hunt your passion until you find a major that is so interesting that even a bad professor is not all that hard to bear. Find a topic of study that drops your jaw when you learn cool things.

For me, it was learning things like Maxwell's equations predicting the speed of light and why the sky is blue. For you, it is likely to be something different, but find your passion you can, and finding your passion is worth the effort that it takes. This is nothing new for today's generation. It has always been this way. If you can look back at your college days 30 years later, and still be thrilled at how cool the topic of study was, in spite of how hard it was, and still want to learn more about it, you are doing the right thing in college.

Seek out your passion, when you find it, it will be worth it...

What wonderful advice - I hope everyone here memorizes it. It seems to me that this is the real reason FIRST exists, to expose students to subjects and ideas that might inspire some passion that will in turn become a career choice and in turn change our culture for the better, which is part of Dean's homework assignments for us all.

[Daisy]

I cannot give a perspective upon life after high school, for I am a junior in high school, but I do have some thoughts on college (parenthetically, I have only browsed through the responses so I do not know if this was noted, but I figured to post it anyways). Maybe, in my limited view, I am missing something, and am biased, or answering an off topic thread with and off topic response.

However it seems that college is a great chance that some people, in other regions of the world, really have to strive for, and not take lightly. In some regions of the world, there are not as great opportunities out there for them for something, financial or otherwise, is limiting them from furthering their education.

I have heard many people say about that they are going to college for the parties. I have heard people mention that they want freedom, but the same people not once mention a word about the education they will receive. So maybe, college does offer exactly what it says it does, and all colleges offer something really great, but some people decide not to take it seriously, and go on for the "fun". That is not a college's fault, but all those hormones that seem to take over, and to at least me, when infused into their brains make them go wacko .

So my answer to the question of whether or not colleges give false hope, is that they do not. It is all in what a person decides to do with the opportunity he is given. It is all on the amount of focus a person gives. And maybe even it is the other way around. Maybe, some people put false advertisements on colleges, labelling them of lower rank, when isn't college, not a name, but what you get out of it? and how good the professors you find are, and how you use their knowledge to the best degree you can?

Sorry if this was mumbo jumbo. I hope it makes sense to somebody somewhere, even if it isn't me I also inserted a bunch of spaces. Hope it makes it a bit more readable.

Daisy

[Robyn Needel]

Originally Posted by Ken Leung

Let us agree that the best college for us may not necessary the most competitive schools in the country, and let that be that. Jaine, I think you have a good point, one worth standing on, and you shouldn't feel bad expressing what you really think. There must be others out there who believe the same thing (I happened to be one of them).

Getting back to the topic, let me articulate my position further.

While there are many definition for success, for example, getting through a difficult challenge, exploring the world, getting a higher degree, learning how to learn, and finding your passion, which I agree are great achievements for any college students, I think it is more important to look at the flip side of them.

College CAN be many things for many students, but it CAN also be the following things to some students I know:

College is something they want to get over as soon as possible and want nothing to do with afterward.
College is a collection of cutting classes and missing as much work as possible and scrape by with the minimal effort.
School and learning are something they hate, and homework and tests are something they hate worse.
College is something they struggle with, have no idea why they struggle with, and something they don't know how to succeed in.

And here is the worst: College is something someone told them to go to.


I do not disagree there are many cases of success in colleges across the United States. I do, however, want to point out that it seems to me there is a raising feeling of not knowing what the point of college is among the students. I do not yet have any evidence to support this observation, other than observations I made from friends in my school. That's is why I raised this question, becuase I do not know all the facts (I doubt anyone does).

Do you agree, or disagree with this? Is our generation more aware or less aware of the point of college? And is the lack of this awareness the reason why so many students are struggling through college?

Ken,

I think that you are noticing these things because you are in college and are surrounded by students who are struggling and are questioning why they are there. I believe that too many school systems do not address their students' needs when they are children. Academic and career choices should ideally be presented to students starting when they are young, and coursework should be related to real world experiences. Unfortunately for many students, this is just not the case. By high school, they are bored out of their minds and can't wait to get out. Then they are told they must get good scores on the standardized tests and get into "good" schools in order to succeed, but success is not defined for them past that point.

Success involves self-actualization as defined by Maslow (see what I learned in college so many years ago?...lol) - once your needs are met, you want more - to feel like you are important in some way, have made a difference, to feel good about yourself, enjoy a good quality of life. College can help students learn to think for themselves by studying the thoughts and ideas of others, both past and present, by listening to many points of view, and intelligently challenging ideas. Cutting class wastes money and the chance to stretch one's mental wings. Learning takes place every day in someone's life, whether they are in college or not - maybe some college students don't want to learn what they are being taught in class, but I don't think they dislike learning in general. Struggling in college is common - as I've mentioned before, a lot of students aren't prepared, either emotionally or academically, for the rigors of college life and it's frustrating and disheartening.

As for your last comment, sadly I think it is true in many cases that there are students in college who were told to attend, but the reasons for the advice were not divulged. I can tell you from my personal experiences that college is like a finishing school ... graduates have a "polish" that enriches their lives in many ways, no matter what career they ultimately pursue. A college education enables a person to more thoroughly enjoy the company of people from all backgrounds (by understanding and appreciating cultural differences and similarities), to appreciate literature, art, music, travel, to hold their own in a spirited conversation no matter what the topic, to find their particular passion and learn how to learn.

It is true that there are many, many people who have a wonderful quality of life despite never having attended college - but college students are lucky. They have the luxury of the years they spend in school to grow, change and become the people they would like to be. I remember feeling a lot like those students you describe when I started college, but by the time I graduated, I was so different - I had learned how to set goals for myself, tested my limits, and really enjoyed most of the time I spent in school. The size and prestige of the school really has little to do with a student's success, it's more about the student knowing themselves and where they belong.

[Robyn Needel]

Originally Posted by Ken Leung

That is exceptionaly extraordinary! I can only hope that my mind is still lucid by the time I reach at age... That is an amazing way to live life.

The thirst for knowledge should never stop, no matter what your age - my mom matriculated in and completed law school in the 1940's after having only 2 years of college ( an acceptable practice in those days). Many years later, when she retired in her '70's, my mother decided she wanted to finally get her undergraduate degree - she pursued and earned a Bachelor of Fine Arts. Now, at almost 89, she studies and plays bridge, reads constantly, and is an avid supporter of FIRST :-)

[John Gutmann]

Originally Posted by sanddrag

The problem I take most notice of in college is the lack of quality education through innovative and creative means. Education has become boring and not very fun at all. Students sleep in class, or skip class, because they can't stand listening to a professor babble on through equations in a room with grey walls, fluorescent lights, and no windows. Professors are teaching how to calculate the way through designing the perfect screwdriver when half the students in the class haven't even held one.

This is a hands on generation. We don't like sitting in cramped little chairs with attached desks barely larger than a sheet of paper while being lectured at.

In many of my college classes, a 50% class average on a test would be considered normal. This is simply unnaceptable.

Education is failing. Nobody wants to stare at a board full of greek letters and complicated equations all day. Nobody wants to labor through a 1000 page math book solving hundreds of integrals. It isn't working. We aren't learning.

Education needs to become more applied and exciting. Right now, at least to me, it is quite boring.

This is what it is like in my highschool.

At the beggining of the year I needed 1 more credit. So I picked a class that would be easy, conceptual physics. haha, yes conceptual physics. The part that surprises me is that I would rather be in the conceptual class then be in then a normal physicis class. In conceptual physics we sit there for a class and learn this is this and that is that and to do this you use this equation. But the next class we do things that are hands on. We have periods of up to 3 weeks at a time where we just come into class, the teahcer talks for 2 mins then we are doing hands on things all class long. compared to the regents phsycis where they sit there for a week being lectured and get 1 class to do something.

This kinda proves the point that Jaine was making. Just because a school has a big name doesn't mean it is better for you. Yes if you go to a big school you may get a "better" (better being used very loosly here) degree. your degree isn't necessarily better, it just has a more recognized name on it. If you wanna go pay more for a better degree may get you a better job.

If you are going to a big name school because you want that degree with the fancy name on it so you can get a high paying executive position then you might as well go become a lawyer. (no offense, my dad is a lawyer and I don't even let him explain things to me)


Another reason that I dont wanna go to a big school like MIT ( though I wish I could use their facilities ) is that you pay more to pay the professors. At big school like that they put one teacher in a room with alot of people. (90+ maybe) so naturally that one teacher will get paid more for teaching more people and for teaching at MIT. So really what are you getting out of that, the teacher could careless if you learn. ( most anyways ) they wana go teach an getout of there. Not many of them will stay after class to show you this cool little thing-a-mabob they have. Or to help you with your own project. Or even help mentor a robotics team!

Now on the other hand if you look at the small schools, those professors aren't getting paid a whole lot so surely they must love their job. They must be doing what they love or else they would be teaching at MIT. And surely if they love their job that much it will carry through in how they teach you. Also not to mention a small class size and more likely more hands on things, more demos, better learning. ( you know the whole shabang)

THANK YOU COMMUNITY COLLEGE.......only for the first 2 years

[sanddrag]

I like to feel proud of myself when I come upon a student who can solve any integral on the face of the planet, but who has never taken apart an engine, turned a piece of metal on a lathe, drilled a hole, installed an operating system, served a web page, typed a line of code, purchased a ball bearing, or otherwise.

FIRST gives you exposure to so many things that a majority of students miss out on.

[JVN]

Originally Posted by sanddrag

I like to feel proud of myself when I come upon a student who can solve any integral on the face of the planet, but who has never taken apart an engine, turned a piece of metal on a lathe, drilled a hole, installed an operating system, served a web page, typed a line of code, purchased a ball bearing, or otherwise.

FIRST gives you exposure to so many things that a majority of students miss out on.

You've been very dismissive of higher education in your last few posts, but I'm willing to bet that if you want to become an engineer, your future employer will care a lot more about your integral solving abilities, than your abilities as a car mechanic.

Practical knowledge is great, FIRST gives us gobs of it, but unless you put your nose down and learn the theory stuff, you're not going to be any use to anyone as an engineer. We always need to know "why".

-JV

edit:
I feel the need to clarify, after reading Greg's post below... I do not believe theory is everything, and that practical knowledge is useless. Those who know me, know this is DEFINITELY not true. However, I AM arguing that you can't be so dismissive of the theoretical parts of engineering. (No snide comments from my college roommates, please.)

Those who say "It doesn't matter that I am flunking Calculus, because I've gotten lots of experience in FIRST, and that's what will make me a good engineer" are TOTALLY deluding themselves. Stop lying to yourself, you're wrong. Take it from someone who has been there. I took Calc2 twice (I got a D the first time), after my father kicked me in the butt; the 2nd time I got an "A".

Sure, it is good to be on Baja, but if you're learning your integrals too... who cares?
/edit