Front Page NYT Article

[Daisy]

How about a petition? Erm...I know a bit late, because most of you are in ATL, but what if someone wrote a petition of some sort, and then had everyone who went to ATL sign it? That is A LOT of people. Or even better, may be to write it, and post it on CD, and then have people sign their names that way.

Is someone willing to do this? I cannot, until next week (5/6) so if someone can do it earlier, or tonight for competition tomorrow it would be awesome.

I know, of course, that this may not be the most persuasive piece, but if no one knows of a lawyer, then maybe something will occur of it.

Just a thought,

Daisy

P.S. Good luck to all teams at ATL!

[KenWittlief]

If everyone in FIRST donated their lunch money for a week I'll bet we could hire the best immigration lawyer in NYC!

[MetalVidsters]

There are so many people involved in First that would want to help him. We should be able to do something.

[Daniel_LaFleur]

I will play devils advocate here.

We are a nation of laws. Amadou Ly has chosen to willfully break these laws to stay here when his Visa ran out. He has chosen to hide from the authorities rather than attempt to work within the system to become a citizen (or legal immigrent). It appears from the article that he has tried to become a citizen only after he got caught. This shows a deep disrespect for our laws and our culture.

I do not know Amadou Ly. I do not know what type of person he is. From the article those who know him speak well of him and, in the end, those people might be his best chance at staying in this country. It is my hope that Amadou Ly gets a fair shot at becoming a legal immigrent and that he has learned that to live within this nation of laws he must follow those laws.

FIRST teaches many lessons far away from the robot. Lets hope that Amandou and others can learn from Amandous' experience.

[KenWittlief]

Originally Posted by Daniel_LaFleur

I will play devils advocate here.

We are a nation of laws. Amadou Ly has chosen to willfully break these laws to stay here when his Visa ran out...

You must have read a different article than the one in the NY Times.

When he came here he did not speak english.

His mother left him here when he was 14.

What does a 14 year old living on the streets know about Visa's and immigration laws? What would he know about anything except where his next meal might be coming from?

My parents were divorced when I was 13, so I have some idea what its like to have to fend for yourself (to a degree). I cant imagine what it would be like to be abandoned in a foreign country at that age?

What choices did he have? Flag down a police car and ask to be flow back to Senegal?

[Daniel_LaFleur]

Originally Posted by KenWittlief

You must have read a different article than the one in the NY Times.

When he came here he did not speak english.

His mother left him here when he was 14.

What does a 14 year old living on the streets know about Visa's and immigration laws? What would he know about anything except where his next meal might be coming from?

My parents were divorced when I was 13, so I have some idea what its like to have to fend for yourself (to a degree). I cant imagine what it would be like to be abandoned in a foreign country at that age?

What choices did he have? Flag down a police car and ask to be flow back to Senegal?

Ignorance of the law is no excuse. Never has been.

And he was not found out until he was 17, an age where he should know better and should do the right thing.

Do you truely believe that we should not obey the laws of this nation?

[Cynette]

OK. Enough Devil's Advocate. Back to Gracious Professionalism. Or at least graciousness.

Cynette (obviously a mom)

[Mike375]

Hi everyone,

I am so glad so many people have already begun to look into ways to help our fellow FIRSTer out with this situation. Although I've never met Amadou, I now find it quite remarkable some of the ways our lives crossed paths, and can cross paths.

I'm an alumni of FIRST (99-03). I attended this year's NYC regional and saw my former high school Staten Island Tech (375) join forces with Morris HS and Amadou's East Harlem Tech to win the regional. The excitement that rookie Harlem team had for the competiton was incredibly contagious, and I was so glad that they received an opportunity to participate in the Championship event.

Now for how I plan to help out. While I'm not familiar with immigration law, I just so happen to attend the college Amadou wants to attend, New York City College of Technology. I am going to make sure everyone from the President, to the admissions office, to the financial aid office is made aware of this story. The school is incredibly diverse with students from all over the planet, and I know as an active FIRST participant, he will thrive in the program of study. I'm also going to contact the team and offer to help him deal with any of the levels of bureacracy he might have to deal with at the college.

[yfactor]

There has got to be something the FIRST community can do to help Amadou and other students like him. (I am sure he cannot be the only one since First has grown so large.)

Perhaps donations to his team for him or something to help him get through the immigration process.

I know from experience that gainin citizenship or even a green card takes a lot of money as well as time. (it took me 10 years to get mine.)

I agree with Daniel LaFleur from the PVC Pirates about respecting the laws of the country. However, a 14 year old having to work to provide himself with food, shelter and school supplies has much more to worry about. and from 14 yrs to 17 yrs is 4 years. i will repeat that it took me 10 yrs to get a green card. (my case was unusually long though. it usually takes a max. of 6 years to get one. but still. 6 is more than 4.

[KenWittlief]

Originally Posted by Daniel_LaFleur

Ignorance of the law is no excuse. Never has been.

And he was not found out until he was 17, an age where he should know better and should do the right thing.

Do you truely believe that we should not obey the laws of this nation?

see, here's the thing - how is it a law when there is no penalty or punishment?

If he is already here illegally, then the 'penalty' for breaking the law is: you get deported

if he had turned himself in: you get deported

If I had been in his situation I would have done the same thing. To quote Dylan "When you aint got nothing, you got nothing to lose".

[Daniel_LaFleur]

Originally Posted by KenWittlief

see, here's the thing - how is it a law when there is no penalty or punishment?

If he is already here illegally, then the 'penalty' for breaking the law is: you get deported

if he had turned himself in: you get deported

If I had been in his situation I would have done the same thing. To quote Dylan "When you aint got nothing, you got nothing to lose".

*sigh*
Ken, as a mentor I teach the students to follow the rules. How can I, in good conscience, stand behind someone who knowingly broke the law? His story shows the shades of Grey, and why the system is in place. He should have applied for a temporary green card while working toward a more permanent solution.

Please understand that I am NOT for Amadous' deportation. However, I am for holding up his story as an example of "how fear makes us act against our better interest" and "how good intentions lead to bad examples".

We in FIRST have to hold ourselves to a higher standard. We need to show that being responsible for ones actions should be the norm and is to be praised. We need to either obey the laws/system, or work to to change the laws/system. We need to avoid breaking the laws because they are currently inconvienient.

I wish the very best for Amandou, but not at the cost of our code of laws.

[KenWittlief]

Originally Posted by Daniel_LaFleur

*sigh*
Ken, as a mentor I teach the students to follow the rules. .

yes, absolutely.

At what point did Amadou break our laws? He was left here by his mother when he was a minor. That was not his choice, that was not his action.

By the time he was 18 his only choice was to surrender himself to the immigration department and be deported, or to find a way to go back to Africa himself (self deportation). There never was a way for him to say here legally.

He had no do-the-right-thing option.

Back in the 19th century when a slave escaped from his owner he was breaking the law. If someone helped him escape he was breaking the law. Anyone who was a part of the Underground Railroad taking slaves across the border into Canada was breaking the law. Now we consider those people heros of American history.

It is absurd that, at this point in human history, if a person stands, or is born on one side of a line painted across a road, that he is treated differently, has different rights, has different opportunites.

I am not advocating that anyone should break the law to help or harbor Amadou, or anyone else. I recognize that he was left in a no-win situation, and I believe that we (the FIRST community) should do everything in our power to help him.

[Daniel_LaFleur]

Originally Posted by KenWittlief

At what point did Amadou break our laws?

The second his Visa ran out.

Originally Posted by KenWittlief

He was left here by his mother when he was a minor. That was not his choice, that was not his action.

First, you do not need to be of age to request a Green card. They are given out to students all the time
Second, His violation of the law was an inaction since he failed to attempt to get a green card when his visa ran out.

Originally Posted by KenWittlief

By the time he was 18 his only choice was to surrender himself to the immigration department and be deported, or to find a way to go back to Africa himself (self deportation). There never was a way for him to say here legally.

He never attempted (in the article) to get his green card. Only after he got caught and procedings against him start did he try to gain a legitimate status within the US.

Originally Posted by KenWittlief

He had no do-the-right-thing option.

He could have attempted to let the system work. Instead he chose to hide.

Originally Posted by KenWittlief

Back in the 19th century when a slave escaped from his owner he was breaking the law. If someone helped him escape he was breaking the law. Anyone who was a part of the Underground Railroad taking slaves across the border into Canada was breaking the law. Now we consider those people heros of American history.

Originally Posted by Daniel_LaFleur

We need to either obey the laws/system, or work to to change the laws/system. We need to avoid breaking the laws because they are currently inconvienient.

So we should break the law anytime we see an injustice?
No, we need to work within the system to bring justice to the people. Our civilization requires people to follow a set of laws. If the laws are injust, then we need to work to change the laws, not break them.

Originally Posted by KenWittlief

It is absurd that, at this point in human history, if a person stands, or is born on one side of a line painted across a road, that he is treated differently, has different rights, has different opportunites.

Absurd as it may be, it is a fact of life in this world.

Originally Posted by KenWittlief

I am not advocating that anyone should break the law to help or harbor Amadou, or anyone else. I recognize that he was left in a no-win situation, and I believe that we (the FIRST community) should do everything in our power to help him.

and here we find common ground. By all accounts in the article, Amadou is a good kid who showed some poor judgement. His fear of the system led him to a poor decision.

While this decision should weigh against him (responsibility), those who know him as a community should stand by his side writeing letters stating the good that he has done and that should speak volumes about his character.

[artdutra04]

Originally Posted by Daniel_LaFleur

So we should break the law anytime we see an injustice?

No, we need to work within the system to bring justice to the people. Our civilization requires people to follow a set of laws. If the laws are injust, then we need to work to change the laws, not break them.

The Boston Tea Party was illegal. The Declaration of Independence was illegal. Freeing slaves before the Emancipation Proclamation was illegal. Having de-segregated public areas used to be illegal. Rosa Parks broke the law. Thomas Jefferson broke the law. George Washington broke the law. Although they committed illegal activities, they greatly altered our society for the better. There is quite a difference between civil disobedience and lawlessness anarchy.

Our world is changing, and silly lines drawn on a map are beginning to mean less and less. Isolationism is yielding to globalism. We will still have separate countries, but a peaceful future lies not in drawing chalk lines and apportioning up the world, but in everyone opening our borders. Just look at recent trends - the United States, the European Union, and United Nations - all separate sovereign entities joining together for the betterment of everyone.

[Robyn Needel]

For anyone that hasn't checked CBS yet, our FIRST community came through - Amadou's story will be reported on Friday's news.

I can see both sides of the story here - Amadou is a victim of circumstances and couldn't help what happened to him when he was 14. Someone along the way (one of his adult friends) should have advised him to go to Legal Aid when they realized what was happening - but since that didn't happen, there's no reason to throw blame on Amadou or anyone else. The reality is that he is here and in a bind - and in America everyone has a chance to become their best, that's what makes our country great. There are many cases where public opinion has swayed Congress to make special exceptions for immigration cases and other individual legal problems - maybe the result of all this publicity will help Amadou achieve legal citizenship. We met the team, they were on Archimedes with us, a great group who worked really hard. All of the team members want desperately to achieve...and they deserve every break they can get.