Go to Post Wow! Shipping to Israel?!? It's exciting to have a fan from so far away :D - stens987 [more]
Home
Go Back   Chief Delphi > Competition > Championship Event
CD-Media   CD-Spy  
portal register members calendar search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read FAQ rules

 
Closed Thread
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #16   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 27-04-2006, 23:31
Ricky Q.'s Avatar Unsung FIRST Hero
Ricky Q. Ricky Q. is offline
yee haw!
FRC #0148 (Robowranglers)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Rookie Year: 2002
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 1,651
Ricky Q. has a reputation beyond reputeRicky Q. has a reputation beyond reputeRicky Q. has a reputation beyond reputeRicky Q. has a reputation beyond reputeRicky Q. has a reputation beyond reputeRicky Q. has a reputation beyond reputeRicky Q. has a reputation beyond reputeRicky Q. has a reputation beyond reputeRicky Q. has a reputation beyond reputeRicky Q. has a reputation beyond reputeRicky Q. has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Ricky Q.
Re: Drivers' Meeting

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark McLeod
Our driver relayed to me that you aren't to go over the line until the clock changes from 0 to 40. Then you can go.
This is to accomodate the new "delay" to check auton scores.
__________________
Ricky Quinones
Director of Sales - VEX Robotics
  #17   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 27-04-2006, 23:41
David Brinza's Avatar
David Brinza David Brinza is offline
Lead Mentor, Lead Robot Inspector
FRC #0980 (ThunderBots)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Rookie Year: 2003
Location: Glendale, CA
Posts: 1,379
David Brinza has a reputation beyond reputeDavid Brinza has a reputation beyond reputeDavid Brinza has a reputation beyond reputeDavid Brinza has a reputation beyond reputeDavid Brinza has a reputation beyond reputeDavid Brinza has a reputation beyond reputeDavid Brinza has a reputation beyond reputeDavid Brinza has a reputation beyond reputeDavid Brinza has a reputation beyond reputeDavid Brinza has a reputation beyond reputeDavid Brinza has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Drivers' Meeting

Quote:
Originally Posted by Henry_222
... On of which was from a member of team 4 who asked if an appendage broke and was the first part of said robot to contact another robot (being outside of the bumper zone) would there be a penalty. There answer was yes, a penalty would ensue. I don't know why I typed that entire question out, just an example I guess of one of the good questions.
...
Teams, drivers, coaches, read the rules and play with gracious professionalism in mind. I understand that the game is the game, but lets not turn this game to a 2005 who gets the most penalties.
...
-$.02 de Henry
I think the question by our team captain was more general and the answer, perhaps, more disturbing:
If something breaks on a robot such that it becomes an appendage, would penalties be incurred by contact with an opposing robot outside the bumper zone? Answer: Yes.

So, if you design and build a robot that is not intended to ever extend beyond the bumper zone, but a mechanical failure occurs such that now your robot has a loose piece that could contact a opposing robot outside of the bumper zone, you are now vulnerable to being penalized should the opponent drive into your broken part...
So the guy who was worried about his camera getting whacked better hope that it falls to the floor, because if the opposing robot who knocked it loose in the first place now comes back and hits it as it swings around by its cables might be able to collect penalty points for his alliance. It can't be this twisted, can it ?

Probably not. However, I could imagine a portion of a shooter, or a piece of lexan coming loose from a robot and creating the potential for this penalty. So if this happens to your robot, you need to go on the defensive to prevent robot contact with your broken part. Get up your ramp and camp!
__________________
"There's never enough time to do it right, but always time to do it over."
2003 AZ: Semifinals, Motorola Quality; SoCal: Q-finals, Xerox Creativity; IRI: Q-finals
2004 AZ: Semifinals, GM Industrial Design; SoCal: Winners, Leadership in Controls; Championship: Galileo #2 seed, Q-finals; IRI: Champions
2005 AZ: #1 Seed, Xerox Creativity; SoCal: Finalist, RadioShack Controls; SVR: Winners, Delphi "Driving Tomorrow's Technologies"; Championship: Archimedes Semifinals; IRI: Finalist
2007 LA: Finalist; San Diego: Q-finals; CalGames: Finalist || 2008 San Diego: Q-finals; LA: Winners; CalGames: Finalist || 2009 LA: Semifinals; Las Vegas: Q-finals; IRI: #1 Seed, Finalist
2010 AZ: Motorola Quality; LA: Finalist || 2011 SD: Q-finals; LA: Q-finals || 2013 LA: Xerox Creativity, WFFA, Dean's List Finalist || 2014 IE: Q-finals, LA: Finalist, Dean's List Finalist
2016 Ventura: Q-finals, WFFA, Engineering Inspiration
  #18   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 28-04-2006, 00:39
UlTiMaTeP UlTiMaTeP is offline
Registered User
no team
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Rookie Year: 2001
Location: Harbor Freight of Fort Lauderdale
Posts: 222
UlTiMaTeP will become famous soon enoughUlTiMaTeP will become famous soon enough
Re: Drivers' Meeting

This driver meeting thoroughly disgusted me.

1. Any robot that has anything that extends past the original size constraints (28x38x60) (not in the bumper zone) and touches by accident, coincidences or on purpose, will be penalized. The word incidental is not used in its proper definition in the rules. The definition of incidental touching means a robot will not be penalized if it touches the bumper zone first, stays in contact with the bumper zone, and then touches higher up. True incidental touches WILL STILL BE PENALIZED. That means if you have a dumper, expanding hopper, arm, wing, blocker, stick, tie wrap, something that sticks out by accident, you will be penalized if someone else touches that object.

2. Clarification of pinning rule. You can pin a robot for a few seconds and then you have to back away in any spot except for on top of the ramp. The clarification states that if you push a robot on either ramp, you can hold it forever. This gives big power robots lots of room to do whatever they want. If you were to push a robot up the ramp and say it was sideways you could hold your robot against it the entire match and get the points for the robot as well as "disabling the robot the entire match" Even though this rule may have been in the book the entire year, this is a serious blow to GP.

3. Bumper zone contact, (please if anyone knows this better than I do please comment) As I heard, if a robot pushes another robot in any position as long as the pushing was done in the bumper zone, and the opposing robot flips over, it is not the aggressors fault. Another serious blow to GP. This is giving the ability to easily disable a robot for the entire match. With the sharp ramps this year pushing a robot onto the ramp makes it very easy to tip. This makes me feel like this is turning into a destruction derby.

4. Autonomous and Corner Goals, Intentional ramming in auto is now illegal, and I firmly back this rule and this was a very good one. While that is a great addition, The rule considering robots protruding into a goal is absolutely ludicrous. Obviously the protruding rule was based first on safety. But the consequences are terrible, an entire robot alliance DQ'ed? While we can legally tip other robots. But the real ugly problem comes in with robot aggressors. If a robot were to push another robot into the goal, well you think there would be no penalty or maybe a penalty against the aggressor, right? Wrong. The team that gets pushed in gets the penalty, most people have pieces on their robot that extend more than 3 inches in a certain angle or even straight on. You could so easily push a robot straight into a goal beyond the 3-inch penetration with no effort. This is absolutely ludicrous, allowing robots to disqualify robots on purpose. We might as well have not put the time, effort, blood, and sweat into making shooters and ball handlers.

I would like to take this time to thank all the volunteers and referees that make FIRST possible. One of the great things I have learned this season is how to work with material handling. I am so thankful for that, FIRST basically gave me the opportunity to work on it. I feel with this current rule I believe everything has gone to waste. Many, many of us were not happy. Gracious for all the time the refs put in, but not happy campers. The situation has upset some teams designs so much, some feel that this group of new additions/clarifications have turned FIRST into battlebots. Some go so far as not coming back next year. This is a dire situation that needs to addressed for the sake of Gracious Professionalism. I know we can all do better than this.

-- FIRST team alumni, FIRST team mentor, FIRST volunteer, and FIRST Vex Judge
Peter
__________________
Hows my searching? Call 1-800-Green-Dots
  #19   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 28-04-2006, 00:44
Allison K's Avatar
Allison K Allison K is online now
Registered User
AKA: Allison Kneisler
FRC #3538 (Avondale RoboJackets)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Rookie Year: 2003
Location: Troy, MI
Posts: 585
Allison K has a reputation beyond reputeAllison K has a reputation beyond reputeAllison K has a reputation beyond reputeAllison K has a reputation beyond reputeAllison K has a reputation beyond reputeAllison K has a reputation beyond reputeAllison K has a reputation beyond reputeAllison K has a reputation beyond reputeAllison K has a reputation beyond reputeAllison K has a reputation beyond reputeAllison K has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Drivers' Meeting

Our robot has no apendages, and it would have to break in a pretty interesting manner in order to have a psuedo apendage, so I wasn't paying extremely close attention to all of the questions regarding them, but it seemed to me that a lot of the confusion was in the wording. I think what the ref's meant is that any contact would be subject to a penalty, whether it's actually called is at the discretion of the ref's. Therefore, if Team A has an apendage and Team B keeps running into it, it would seem logical that Team A would not be penalized, even though it is possible according to the rules. I could be wrong, but that conclusion makes the most sense, and seems to be consistant with previous FIRST competitions.
__________________
FRC3538 : RoboJackets : 2014-??? : Head Coach & Drive Coach
FRC226 : Hammerheads : 2003-2013 : Strategist
  #20   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 28-04-2006, 00:50
sw293 sw293 is offline
Former Coach (2005)
AKA: Scott Weingart
FRC #0293 (SPIKE)
Team Role: College Student
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Rookie Year: 2004
Location: Pennington, NJ
Posts: 123
sw293 is a glorious beacon of lightsw293 is a glorious beacon of lightsw293 is a glorious beacon of lightsw293 is a glorious beacon of lightsw293 is a glorious beacon of lightsw293 is a glorious beacon of light
Re: Drivers' Meeting

Quote:
Originally Posted by UlTiMaTeP
The definition of incidental touching means a robot will not be penalized if it touches the bumper zone first, stays in contact with the bumper zone, and then touches higher up.
This the definition of "incidental" the refs are using, right? So this type of contact is not penalized, correct?


Quote:
Intentional ramming in auto is now illegal, and I firmly back this rule and this was a very good one.
As recently as this Q&A "Robot strategies intended to disrupt the aim of an opposing robot are acceptable and to be expected as long as they are not excessive." Where in the rules has this changed? The refs are not banning all disruptive autonomous strategies despite the rules and the Q&A are they?

I'm really confused .
__________________
Team 293
Uncrowned Champions, 2005 Philadelphia Regional
Champions, 2007 Chesapeake Regional
  #21   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 28-04-2006, 00:53
UlTiMaTeP UlTiMaTeP is offline
Registered User
no team
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Rookie Year: 2001
Location: Harbor Freight of Fort Lauderdale
Posts: 222
UlTiMaTeP will become famous soon enoughUlTiMaTeP will become famous soon enough
Re: Drivers' Meeting

The refs are making new rules as the game goes on. And they must be using the elastic clause on the word excessive, to mean ramming.
__________________
Hows my searching? Call 1-800-Green-Dots
  #22   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 28-04-2006, 00:55
Heretic121 Heretic121 is offline
The Resident Gamer -
AKA: Pat or Harry... if you ask its a long story...
FRC #0078 (AIR Strike)
Team Role: Tactician
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Rookie Year: 2004
Location: Rhode Island, USA
Posts: 876
Heretic121 has a reputation beyond reputeHeretic121 has a reputation beyond reputeHeretic121 has a reputation beyond reputeHeretic121 has a reputation beyond reputeHeretic121 has a reputation beyond reputeHeretic121 has a reputation beyond reputeHeretic121 has a reputation beyond reputeHeretic121 has a reputation beyond reputeHeretic121 has a reputation beyond reputeHeretic121 has a reputation beyond reputeHeretic121 has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Heretic121
Re: Drivers' Meeting

all i say to the whole waiting until the clock changes it BAH TO YOU REFS!!! its really gonna be hard for all 300+ teams to change what they learned at other regionals just for this one event... i reall REALLY dislike this one descion but everything else went great
and am very happy Dr. Brown is taking over since benji is MIA... cant wait for tommorows now todays competition...
__________________
2004 - Team 121 Human Player
2005 - Team 121 Student Captian
2006 - Team 38 Drive Team Coach / Mentor
2007 - 2009 - Team 121 Mentor / Strategery Master
2010 - 2013 - Team 78 Mentor / Strategy / Scouting Lead
2014 - Team 78 coach
  #23   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 28-04-2006, 00:57
Cory's Avatar
Cory Cory is offline
Registered User
AKA: Cory McBride
FRC #0254 (The Cheesy Poofs)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: May 2002
Rookie Year: 2001
Location: Redwood City, CA
Posts: 6,823
Cory has a reputation beyond reputeCory has a reputation beyond reputeCory has a reputation beyond reputeCory has a reputation beyond reputeCory has a reputation beyond reputeCory has a reputation beyond reputeCory has a reputation beyond reputeCory has a reputation beyond reputeCory has a reputation beyond reputeCory has a reputation beyond reputeCory has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Cory
Re: Drivers' Meeting

Quote:
Originally Posted by UlTiMaTeP
The refs are making new rules as the game goes on. And they must be using the elastic clause on the word excessive, to mean ramming.
You're kidding right?

Just because you don't like how the rules will be called doesn't mean that they haven't existed for the last 4 months.
__________________
2001-2004: Team 100
2006-Present: Team 254
  #24   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 28-04-2006, 01:01
UlTiMaTeP UlTiMaTeP is offline
Registered User
no team
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Rookie Year: 2001
Location: Harbor Freight of Fort Lauderdale
Posts: 222
UlTiMaTeP will become famous soon enoughUlTiMaTeP will become famous soon enough
Re: Drivers' Meeting

I 100 percent agree with that, as stated in my earlier post.
__________________
Hows my searching? Call 1-800-Green-Dots
  #25   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 28-04-2006, 01:07
David Brinza's Avatar
David Brinza David Brinza is offline
Lead Mentor, Lead Robot Inspector
FRC #0980 (ThunderBots)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Rookie Year: 2003
Location: Glendale, CA
Posts: 1,379
David Brinza has a reputation beyond reputeDavid Brinza has a reputation beyond reputeDavid Brinza has a reputation beyond reputeDavid Brinza has a reputation beyond reputeDavid Brinza has a reputation beyond reputeDavid Brinza has a reputation beyond reputeDavid Brinza has a reputation beyond reputeDavid Brinza has a reputation beyond reputeDavid Brinza has a reputation beyond reputeDavid Brinza has a reputation beyond reputeDavid Brinza has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Drivers' Meeting

Quote:
Originally Posted by UlTiMaTeP
Intentional ramming in auto is now illegal, and I firmly back this rule and this was a very good one.
Just to be clear about what was said at the meeting - intentional ramming in autonomous mode only applies when the offending robot performs a long-distance, high-speed ram into a robot that hasn't moved from the starting box. If a robot intercepts a robot that has moved out of the box, all bets are off as far as intentional ramming. So if your robot consistently drives to the edge of the ramp to pour in ten balls, and a defending robot knocks you out, don't expect a ramming penalty to be called.
__________________
"There's never enough time to do it right, but always time to do it over."
2003 AZ: Semifinals, Motorola Quality; SoCal: Q-finals, Xerox Creativity; IRI: Q-finals
2004 AZ: Semifinals, GM Industrial Design; SoCal: Winners, Leadership in Controls; Championship: Galileo #2 seed, Q-finals; IRI: Champions
2005 AZ: #1 Seed, Xerox Creativity; SoCal: Finalist, RadioShack Controls; SVR: Winners, Delphi "Driving Tomorrow's Technologies"; Championship: Archimedes Semifinals; IRI: Finalist
2007 LA: Finalist; San Diego: Q-finals; CalGames: Finalist || 2008 San Diego: Q-finals; LA: Winners; CalGames: Finalist || 2009 LA: Semifinals; Las Vegas: Q-finals; IRI: #1 Seed, Finalist
2010 AZ: Motorola Quality; LA: Finalist || 2011 SD: Q-finals; LA: Q-finals || 2013 LA: Xerox Creativity, WFFA, Dean's List Finalist || 2014 IE: Q-finals, LA: Finalist, Dean's List Finalist
2016 Ventura: Q-finals, WFFA, Engineering Inspiration
  #26   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 28-04-2006, 01:12
UlTiMaTeP UlTiMaTeP is offline
Registered User
no team
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Rookie Year: 2001
Location: Harbor Freight of Fort Lauderdale
Posts: 222
UlTiMaTeP will become famous soon enoughUlTiMaTeP will become famous soon enough
Re: Drivers' Meeting

Yes if it was accidental it is fine, I believe, disruption of auto will be ruled as fine, as long as these robots aren't driving full speed into another bot. It may be case by case depending on the infraction after the opposing bot is out of the box. We will have to see how it gets ruled if another bot rams one at fullspeed out of the box.
__________________
Hows my searching? Call 1-800-Green-Dots

Last edited by UlTiMaTeP : 28-04-2006 at 01:15.
  #27   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 28-04-2006, 01:17
David Brinza's Avatar
David Brinza David Brinza is offline
Lead Mentor, Lead Robot Inspector
FRC #0980 (ThunderBots)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Rookie Year: 2003
Location: Glendale, CA
Posts: 1,379
David Brinza has a reputation beyond reputeDavid Brinza has a reputation beyond reputeDavid Brinza has a reputation beyond reputeDavid Brinza has a reputation beyond reputeDavid Brinza has a reputation beyond reputeDavid Brinza has a reputation beyond reputeDavid Brinza has a reputation beyond reputeDavid Brinza has a reputation beyond reputeDavid Brinza has a reputation beyond reputeDavid Brinza has a reputation beyond reputeDavid Brinza has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Drivers' Meeting

Quote:
Originally Posted by sw293
"Robot strategies intended to disrupt the aim of an opposing robot are acceptable and to be expected as long as they are not excessive." Where in the rules has this changed? The refs are not banning all disruptive autonomous strategies despite the rules and the Q&A are they?
It seems to me that a robot that is stationary in its starting box is protected against a high speed smash. An acceptable disruptive autonomous strategy (as I think may have even been described in the meeting) would be for the disrupting robot to slow down just prior to contact with a stationary autonomous shooter. Programmers, sharpen up those lines of code!
__________________
"There's never enough time to do it right, but always time to do it over."
2003 AZ: Semifinals, Motorola Quality; SoCal: Q-finals, Xerox Creativity; IRI: Q-finals
2004 AZ: Semifinals, GM Industrial Design; SoCal: Winners, Leadership in Controls; Championship: Galileo #2 seed, Q-finals; IRI: Champions
2005 AZ: #1 Seed, Xerox Creativity; SoCal: Finalist, RadioShack Controls; SVR: Winners, Delphi "Driving Tomorrow's Technologies"; Championship: Archimedes Semifinals; IRI: Finalist
2007 LA: Finalist; San Diego: Q-finals; CalGames: Finalist || 2008 San Diego: Q-finals; LA: Winners; CalGames: Finalist || 2009 LA: Semifinals; Las Vegas: Q-finals; IRI: #1 Seed, Finalist
2010 AZ: Motorola Quality; LA: Finalist || 2011 SD: Q-finals; LA: Q-finals || 2013 LA: Xerox Creativity, WFFA, Dean's List Finalist || 2014 IE: Q-finals, LA: Finalist, Dean's List Finalist
2016 Ventura: Q-finals, WFFA, Engineering Inspiration
  #28   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 28-04-2006, 01:20
UlTiMaTeP UlTiMaTeP is offline
Registered User
no team
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Rookie Year: 2001
Location: Harbor Freight of Fort Lauderdale
Posts: 222
UlTiMaTeP will become famous soon enoughUlTiMaTeP will become famous soon enough
Re: Drivers' Meeting

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Brinza
It seems to me that a robot that is stationary in its starting box is protected against a high speed smash. An acceptable disruptive autonomous strategy (as I think may have even been described in the meeting) would be for the disrupting robot to slow down just prior to contact with a stationary autonomous shooter. Programmers, sharpen up those lines of code!
I think you hit the nail on the head
__________________
Hows my searching? Call 1-800-Green-Dots
  #29   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 28-04-2006, 21:13
henryBsick's Avatar
henryBsick henryBsick is offline
Why wait for the last 20?
AKA: Henry B. Sick
FRC #0125 (NUTRONS)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Rookie Year: 2001
Location: Bahston, MA
Posts: 645
henryBsick has a reputation beyond reputehenryBsick has a reputation beyond reputehenryBsick has a reputation beyond reputehenryBsick has a reputation beyond reputehenryBsick has a reputation beyond reputehenryBsick has a reputation beyond reputehenryBsick has a reputation beyond reputehenryBsick has a reputation beyond reputehenryBsick has a reputation beyond reputehenryBsick has a reputation beyond reputehenryBsick has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to henryBsick
Re: Drivers' Meeting

Quote:
Originally Posted by sw293
Well you must have heard enough to get the answer to this question. What was his answer to this question?

Did he address the idea of incidental contact? They don't mention "incidental contact" four times in <G22> for no reason, so any discussion on the rule without mention of what constitutes incidental contact is incomplete.
Incidental contact was identified as an harmless brush opn the way by. I actually stayed for all of that persons question, and left as Aiden moved on to the next person.
__________________
Mechanical Engineer
Digital Lumens
NU ME: 2011
  #30   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 28-04-2006, 22:57
Mark Pierce Mark Pierce is offline
Registered User
FRC #0085 (B. O. B.)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Rookie Year: 1999
Location: Zeeland, MI
Posts: 239
Mark Pierce has a brilliant futureMark Pierce has a brilliant futureMark Pierce has a brilliant futureMark Pierce has a brilliant futureMark Pierce has a brilliant futureMark Pierce has a brilliant futureMark Pierce has a brilliant futureMark Pierce has a brilliant futureMark Pierce has a brilliant futureMark Pierce has a brilliant futureMark Pierce has a brilliant future
Re: Drivers' Meeting

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Brinza
An acceptable disruptive autonomous strategy ... would be for the disrupting robot to slow down just prior to contact with a stationary autonomous shooter.
Nope. The earlier post is correct. It appears that essentially "all bets are off if the target has moved out of the starting box."

Almost nothing in my 8 years of FIRST has been so discouraging as to be tipped in autonomous two matches in a row. I've got mentors and parents asking how this is different than Battle bots. I sincerely wish that when the first questions were asked that FIRST had changed the rules to prohibit autonomous motion on the defensive side of the field. At least at the regional level, teams were afraid of a DQ or other penalty.
Closed Thread


Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Ask Head Refs questions before Driver's Meeting Brandon Martus Announcements 0 22-04-2006 19:41
Operator Interface LED Drivers Andrew Programming 7 15-03-2004 11:27
2003 IRI: A driver's last hurrah or a new rookie driver's experience? Amanda Morrison Off-Season Events 14 23-05-2003 17:39


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:02.

The Chief Delphi Forums are sponsored by Innovation First International, Inc.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © Chief Delphi