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Unread 02-05-2006, 18:58
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Re: IFI Control System (OI/RC) - The Future???

It's not surprising that the OI/RC are out of stock until next season. These are high priced items. If I was at IFI, I wouldn't want to keep too many in stock for post season. The same thing happened with CIMs last year and the Vex Field this year. Once the main competition season is over, you don't have much demand for these expensive items. So why stock them? I'm sure if a team really needed an RC or OI IFI would have one.

As far as development goes, that would be another reason not to stock OI/RCs post season. If IFI changes interfaces or components, like a new PIC, it would make any models in stock obsolete unless it were a simple retrofit.

These are simply good business practices, not a clue to changes afoot.

With that said, IFI has always worked to improve these systems as technology improved or deficiencies have been found. The new PIC and more memory on this year's RC were in direct response to at least one team who ran out of memory and processing horsepower last season.

As for new technologies, the April IEEE Spectrum magazine had an article on wireless USB. Unfortunately, the IEEE committee working on standards for IEEE 802.15.3a ultrawideband (UWB) couldn't agree on a standard, so it looks like the competing technologies will launch soon and the market will have to sort it out.

Just think someday... wireless USB joysticks, wireless victors and spikes oh my!
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Unread 02-05-2006, 23:21
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Re: IFI Control System (OI/RC) - The Future???

Quote:
Originally Posted by skimoose
It's not surprising that the OI/RC are out of stock until next season. These are high priced items. If I was at IFI, I wouldn't want to keep too many in stock for post season. The same thing happened with CIMs last year and the Vex Field this year. Once the main competition season is over, you don't have much demand for these expensive items. So why stock them? I'm sure if a team really needed an RC or OI IFI would have one.
Actually, I think the IFI systems are used outside of the FIRST community by those other destructive robot competitions like Battlebots. The IFI control systems seem to be discontinued all together according to Robot Marketplace: http://www.robotcombat.com/marketplace_ifirobotics.html

It just makes me wonder what is going on with IFI and what this means for 2007.
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Unread 03-05-2006, 00:33
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Re: IFI Control System (OI/RC) - The Future???

Quote:
Originally Posted by DeepWater
Actually, I think the IFI systems are used outside of the FIRST community by those other destructive robot competitions like Battlebots. The IFI control systems seem to be discontinued all together according to Robot Marketplace: http://www.robotcombat.com/marketplace_ifirobotics.html

It just makes me wonder what is going on with IFI and what this means for 2007.
These are the Isaac controllers, the ones FIRST used prior to the FRC ones (2003 and earlier). They probably discontinued these because the FRC chips are significantly more powerful while probably not being too much more expensive, plus the mini robot controller (aka the EDU-bot controller) came out at the same time they stopped with the Isaac system since it can probably give all the same capabilities in a smaller package that's relatively cheap.

I know our team was at least one of those guilty of overloading last year's memory for code. After failing to get the camera to work very well and then running out of memory, we dropped it from our program last year. It cleared up about half the memory.
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Unread 03-05-2006, 00:50
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Re: IFI Control System (OI/RC) - The Future???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Donut
These are the Isaac controllers, the ones FIRST used prior to the FRC ones (2003 and earlier).
Ahh! I didn't realize that all the Isaac controllers were the old PBasic versions. Thanks for clearing that up.
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Unread 03-05-2006, 08:41
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Re: IFI Control System (OI/RC) - The Future???

If anyone wanted to get a replacement for any of their control system all that person would have to do is give IFI a call and they will gladly help you out, Im 2004 I ordered a 2001 OI, the only difference is some slight hardware and software upgrades. IFI won't be going anywhere they're too reliable to let go. They're always there when you need them, whether at the event, on and off the field, customer service and whatever you else can come up with.
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Unread 04-05-2006, 13:36
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Re: IFI Control System (OI/RC) - The Future???

that would be AWESOME. but it would not require as much engineering and insight to how each pin in the Pinout of the DOS joysticks does and all of that stuff and you dont need to dig through the root of the problem and look it up.. all you have to do is plug and play and I'm against it because I Think that the teams that did all the reasearch for the Ps2 controllers and stuff wasted their times trying to help their teammates..

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Unread 04-05-2006, 15:02
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Re: IFI Control System (OI/RC) - The Future???

A few responses to some suggestions here:

RJ45 connectors - Why would you use giant 8 position connectors for 3 wires? Now the tiny 4 position ones like on telephone handsets would be doable. But there's no way you could fit enough on the RC. The whole point of the connectors are that they're standard for all RC Hobby equipment, and they're standard because they take up SO little space.

USB joysticks would be nice, but the drivers would be a royal pain to work out. And you'd still need ports for custom controls. A USB RC would similarly be nice... but do you really want to be forced to be 5m away from your robot to program? We've got a pair of 30' serial cables to tether the robot and have it hooked up for debugging and it's rather useful.

Also, if you're scraping your hands up pressing the program button on the RC, use the program/reset pin header and put some buttons in easier to reach areas. I had the students figure that one out when they started complaining about that.
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Unread 04-05-2006, 15:44
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Re: IFI Control System (OI/RC) - The Future???

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...ad.php?t=45687

Maybe it is premature to assume that IFI is in the middle of developing advancements for 2007. The linked thread describes how IFI is at the end of their current contract with FIRST. Since they're at the end of a 5-year contract, perhaps they're burning inventory in case there is no renewal?
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Unread 04-05-2006, 16:10
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Re: IFI Control System (OI/RC) - The Future???

I talked to The IFI guy at the Peachtree regional about the future of the controller. He told me that it has "outlived its useful lifespan" and that it was coming time for a new model. He told me that they had not yet decided what the new model would be like, only that there would be one.


I predict
  • The PIC is here to stay
  • Next year's controller will have a USB interface in addition to or in place of the serial port. I is likely that they will just add on an internal usb->uart chip.
  • We may see a different connector scheme (I pray). It would require breaking compatibility with standard RC hardware, but would be well worth it. The can always sell adapter cables. the .1" headers are meant to be well protected. the do not take well to FIRST abuse, are not secure, and are generally a pain.
  • A possible move from the traditional black flat square enclosure. This is WAY bigger than it needs to be. If you take it apart an look at the PCB, its very sparsely populated. Just look at the EDU.
  • add an internal charger for the backup batt

I would also like but do not think it is likely
  • An LCD display on the robot (2x16 characters min)
  • Strong aux power on the OI
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Last edited by Rickertsen2 : 04-05-2006 at 16:12.
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Unread 03-06-2006, 14:00
John Gutmann John Gutmann is offline
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Re: IFI Control System (OI/RC) - The Future???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rickertsen2
I talked to The IFI guy at the Peachtree regional about the future of the controller. He told me that it has "outlived its useful lifespan" and that it was coming time for a new model. He told me that they had not yet decided what the new model would be like, only that there would be one.


I predict
  • The PIC is here to stay
  • Next year's controller will have a USB interface in addition to or in place of the serial port. I is likely that they will just add on an internal usb->uart chip.
  • We may see a different connector scheme (I pray). It would require breaking compatibility with standard RC hardware, but would be well worth it. The can always sell adapter cables. the .1" headers are meant to be well protected. the do not take well to FIRST abuse, are not secure, and are generally a pain.
  • A possible move from the traditional black flat square enclosure. This is WAY bigger than it needs to be. If you take it apart an look at the PCB, its very sparsely populated. Just look at the EDU.
  • add an internal charger for the backup batt

I would also like but do not think it is likely
  • An LCD display on the robot (2x16 characters min)
  • Strong aux power on the OI

Is there a significant reason for predicting that the PIC is here to stay? THere are plenty other mC that are just as easy and even easier to use. AVRs, Gumstix, ect.....

The advantage of switching to another mC I think is that there is more support for the one they switch to.

Speaking from personal expirience and you can ask mike from 237 and matt krause I think it is about AVRs, but they are EXTREMELY EASY TO USE. You can get compilers that make libraries for you, I know of a few compilers that let you write code in other languages. So maybe for a rookie team they can program in PBASIC because they don't have much time to focus on that part. Then in off-season they switch to C

Also wouldn't they want to put the LCD on the OI rather than the RC beause then you can display diagnostics while in a match. And other messages, like you could have done shooter speed this year, or just plain old text that will let you chanegs something significant on your robot. I don't really know It just seems alot more useful on the OI.
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Unread 03-06-2006, 14:04
John Gutmann John Gutmann is offline
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Re: IFI Control System (OI/RC) - The Future???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rickertsen2
I talked to The IFI guy at the Peachtree regional about the future of the controller. He told me that it has "outlived its useful lifespan" and that it was coming time for a new model. He told me that they had not yet decided what the new model would be like, only that there would be one.


I predict
  • The PIC is here to stay
  • Next year's controller will have a USB interface in addition to or in place of the serial port. I is likely that they will just add on an internal usb->uart chip.
  • We may see a different connector scheme (I pray). It would require breaking compatibility with standard RC hardware, but would be well worth it. The can always sell adapter cables. the .1" headers are meant to be well protected. the do not take well to FIRST abuse, are not secure, and are generally a pain.
  • A possible move from the traditional black flat square enclosure. This is WAY bigger than it needs to be. If you take it apart an look at the PCB, its very sparsely populated. Just look at the EDU.
  • add an internal charger for the backup batt

I would also like but do not think it is likely
  • An LCD display on the robot (2x16 characters min)
  • Strong aux power on the OI

Is there a significant reason for predicting that the PIC is here to stay? THere are plenty other mC that are just as easy and even easier to use. AVRs, Gumstix, ect.....

The advantage of switching to another mC I think is that there is more support for the one they switch to.

Speaking from personal expirience and you can ask mike from 237 and matt krass I think it is about AVRs, but they are EXTREMELY EASY TO USE. You can get compilers that make libraries for you, I know of a few compilers that let you write code in other languages. So maybe for a rookie team they can program in PBASIC because they don't have much time to focus on that part. Then in off-season they switch to C

Also wouldn't they want to put the LCD on the OI rather than the RC beause then you can display diagnostics while in a match. And other messages, like you could have done shooter speed this year, or just plain old text that will let you chanegs something significant on your robot. I don't really know It just seems alot more useful on the OI.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Krass
No pressure on IFI eh Jeff?

I don't think we're going to see any major changes, however I would definitely like to see a few rollbacks. Maybe back to the original non-glitchtastic PIC with a memory module hanging off it?

Definitely want screw head power connectors again. I like the standardized PWM connectors too much to trade compatibility for comfort. Hot glue works fine for that.

I know I'm going against the grain here, but does anyone else feel like we need to make less changes, not more?
I feel like they kinda need to reassess the whole system and see what is absolutely necessary. After that they can start to add fancy bell and whistles.

Like as to the radio problem, what if they changed it to a blue tooth radio but made it a standard part just like the radios now. Just plug and play.

Also maybe IFI can make some ambidextrous joysticks rather then FIRST giving us 2 right handed ones. I just don't see how you can build a robot in six weeks but can't figure out how to make ambidextrous joysticks. I even remember one team using pens for the handles!
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Unread 03-06-2006, 18:32
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Re: IFI Control System (OI/RC) - The Future???

Quote:
Originally Posted by sparksandtabs
Is there a significant reason for predicting that the PIC is here to stay? THere are plenty other mC that are just as easy and even easier to use. AVRs, Gumstix, ect.....

The advantage of switching to another mC I think is that there is more support for the one they switch to.

Speaking from personal expirience and you can ask mike from 237 and matt krass I think it is about AVRs, but they are EXTREMELY EASY TO USE. You can get compilers that make libraries for you, I know of a few compilers that let you write code in other languages. So maybe for a rookie team they can program in PBASIC because they don't have much time to focus on that part. Then in off-season they switch to C

I feel like they kinda need to reassess the whole system and see what is absolutely necessary. After that they can start to add fancy bell and whistles.

Like as to the radio problem, what if they changed it to a blue tooth radio but made it a standard part just like the radios now. Just plug and play.

Also maybe IFI can make some ambidextrous joysticks rather then FIRST giving us 2 right handed ones. I just don't see how you can build a robot in six weeks but can't figure out how to make ambidextrous joysticks. I even remember one team using pens for the handles!
Gumstix.... They have a lot of power and engineering built into them already, yet they'd need even more engineering to start approaching the capabilities of the current RC, I think. And I don't think IFI is in the business of reselling other people's controllers anyways. As far as the ATmega processor... it seems comparable to the PIC. 8-bit, A/D, etc. I I'll take your word for it on the compiliers and libraries and such, but any product from IFI is not likely to be an open architecture where you can do whatever you please. So I'm not certain there's an advantage there.

For joysticks, IFI isn't in the business of providing them or making them. You'll note that there isn't a single one on their site, so you're barking up the wrong tree.

Finally, bluetooth. *shudders* Okay. So Bluetooth works in the same frequency band as 802.11b+g wireless lans, and is meant for low power devices with an operating range of 30 ft. This means it's highly susceptible to being blocked by people, metal and generally just about anything. It's also likely to be interfered with by networks at universities, laptops, cordless phones, and microwaves. on top of this, if you're actually implementing Bluetooth, it has to accept and deal with attempts by other bluetooth devices to sync with it. So basically, I think it's a lot more trouble than it's worth. Meanwhile, IFI's radios are pretty darn robust and have good range and deal well with noise, etc.
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Unread 03-06-2006, 19:37
Gdeaver Gdeaver is offline
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Re: IFI Control System (OI/RC) - The Future???

Instead of Bluetooth look at Zigbee. A high computing power Zigbee module and a few components could replace the whole operator interface and cost allot less. The master proc and separate radio modem could be replaced on the robot controller by a Zigbee module. I've used couple Zigbee parts at work and the results have been very good considering Zigbee is just getting going as a standard.
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Unread 03-06-2006, 20:25
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Re: IFI Control System (OI/RC) - The Future???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Sevcik
For joysticks, IFI isn't in the business of providing them or making them. You'll note that there isn't a single one on their site, so you're barking up the wrong tree.
IFI does sell (second section) the KOP joysticks--I ordered three for my kiwi-drive project. However, I agree with the principle of the argument; either use the KOP ones or buy/roll your own.
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2017-: FRC 5402 (Iron Kings) - Mentor

94 events (more than will fit in a ChiefDelphi signature), 14 seasons, over 61,000 miles, and still on a mission from Bob.

Rule #1: Do not die. Rule #2: Be respectful. Rule #3: Be safe. Rule #4: Follow the handbook.

Last edited by Billfred : 03-06-2006 at 20:32.
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Re: IFI Control System (OI/RC) - The Future???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karthik
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...ad.php?t=45687

Maybe it is premature to assume that IFI is in the middle of developing advancements for 2007. The linked thread describes how IFI is at the end of their current contract with FIRST. Since they're at the end of a 5-year contract, perhaps they're burning inventory in case there is no renewal?
It could be--but I think that the purchase of Vex (which, unless I really missed something, seems to have its biggest support in FIRSTers) seems to point to IFI wanting to keep with FIRST. And there's also Tony's quote from the UFH award:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony Norman
We’ve had all kinds of financial advisors tell us FIRST isn’t worth our time, but they just don’t understand the hidden payoff that comes from being a part of this program.
Unless they've been brainwashed by their bean-counters and managed to hide it in Atlanta, I'm betting that IFI will do just about anything within reason to keep working with FIRST.

On an unrelated note, I'd love to see the ring terminals return to the RC like they were in 2004. Secure, and so much less prone to break!
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2004-2006: FRC 1293 (D5 Robotics) - Student, Mentor, Coach
2007-2009: FRC 1618 (Capital Robotics) - Mentor, Coach
2009-2013: FRC 2815 (Los Pollos Locos) - Mentor, Coach - Palmetto '09, Peachtree '11, Palmetto '11, Palmetto '12
2010: FRC 1398 (Keenan Robo-Raiders) - Mentor - Palmetto '10
2014-2016: FRC 4901 (Garnet Squadron) - Co-Founder and Head Bot Coach - Orlando '14, SCRIW '16
2017-: FRC 5402 (Iron Kings) - Mentor

94 events (more than will fit in a ChiefDelphi signature), 14 seasons, over 61,000 miles, and still on a mission from Bob.

Rule #1: Do not die. Rule #2: Be respectful. Rule #3: Be safe. Rule #4: Follow the handbook.
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