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Unread 02-05-2006, 20:07
Gdeaver Gdeaver is offline
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Re: IFI Control System (OI/RC) - The Future???

I recently have dealt with some Zigbee modules. There are some FCC precertified modules that include powerful processors. Some are 32 bit RISC and I believe an ARM one will be available soon. They have enough i/o and a to d pins to virtually replace the entire operator interface. This could drastically lower the cost of First electronics. The robot controller is a little different. With the master proc generating the PWM's and other house keeping, a single Zigbee module would not be a good replacement of the master proc on the RC. A Cheaper less capable Zigbee module and 2 pic 16 assembly coded PWM chips would fit the needs of the master proc. The cost savings of not having to provide 2 radio modems could be substantial. 50$ in volume buys 1 hell of a powerful module. All IFI would have to do for the oi is make a back plane with some sockets on it. Micro chip and FIRST are close. IFI would have to look beyond Microchip for precertified modules.

The Vex could also benefit from a little radio change. This past weekend I got a PS2 wireless controller hooked up to a pic and some servos powering a Vex square bot. I don't know about licensing issues but if vexlabs total skipped the radio's and oi and just provided a Sony PS2 jack the cost of a VEX kit could drop allot and reach a larger market. Let the user provide the PS2 wireless controller. I really liked the feel of the PS2 controller for vex.
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Unread 04-05-2006, 16:05
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Re: IFI Control System (OI/RC) - The Future???

USB interfacing to download programs to the RC would probably be the nicest advancement at serial ports seem to continue to dissappear...

Stronger connectors for the +/- terminals on the RC would also be nice...we pulled one out and had to re-solder it back on.
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Unread 04-05-2006, 16:32
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Re: IFI Control System (OI/RC) - The Future???

Although everything in this thread has been speculative and people have brought up good points, I definitly agree that there could be a million different reasons why IFI would not be selling more for this year. Either way, in the case that there are major changes, my only request would be that they continue what they did a few years ago with the edubot... provide an early test-bed for teams to transition with. I know many teams and students that are purchasing the VEX system to learn electronics and develop code to work in FRC next year.

With the hints made several times by FIRST in Atlanta, they definitly are planning to bring that camera back again and will be trying to push autonomous harder once again. As long as teams have time to learn the basics of a new system, I feel that this could be done with great success. I know that several teams plan to try to learn more about better using the CMUCAM in the offseason, and should a major revamp of the system come into play next year (i.e. FIRST decides to use a different color-tracking camera for some reason or the programming language changes)

The transition from Basic to C was a major step a few years ago, and if that happened again I would only hope we had enough time to transition pre-season and develop basic tutorials for students that have never worked with the system before. One possible strategy could be to incorporate these changes into the next-generation VEX controllers a few months before season. It would keep both FRC and FVC using similar controllers, allowing teams to work together as support groups in next year's game as well as learn whatever type of new system is used.

Finally, surprises add to the challenge and I am definitly not saying "They should let the cat out've the bag pre-season." However, something that would completly change how the system works should be announced early enough for teams to adapt and do research so they are in a position where they can tackle the games challenges.
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Last edited by miketwalker : 04-05-2006 at 16:38.
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Unread 06-05-2006, 20:05
devicenull devicenull is offline
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Re: IFI Control System (OI/RC) - The Future???

My guess would be they are switching out the PIC.. with all the problems that we initally had, why keep it? There has to be a better model that doesn't require disabling parts of memory

The old PBasic controllers had parallel ports for sensor connectors.. Those were probably gotten rid of because of the number of wires you had to solder to them.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Sevcik
Also, if you're scraping your hands up pressing the program button on the RC, use the program/reset pin header and put some buttons in easier to reach areas. I had the students figure that one out when they started complaining about that.
There are free pins in the program cable, you could fairly easily wire up remote switches using a break out box on both ends.
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Unread 06-05-2006, 22:45
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Re: IFI Control System (OI/RC) - The Future???

I really don't see any major problem with the current PWM connectors, a little clip thingy like those RobotMarketplace doohickys could solve the problem on the RC end, and those RobotMarketplace doohickys could be used on the Victors. A little more reliability in the RC and better power connectors would be nice. Some metal linings on the mount holes would also be nice so you can Loctite them without destroying the piece. (Would be nice on Victors too, actually) As for the breaker block, two more 40A slots would be nice, and maybe a digital display that says the total current the robots pulling at the time. It would be perfect if it included current sensing on all the 40A slots, but that would be far to big/heavy and pricey. Maybe putting LEDs next to the slots that are popping breakers, or having another way to check for popped breakers.
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Unread 07-05-2006, 13:01
Rickertsen2 Rickertsen2 is offline
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Re: IFI Control System (OI/RC) - The Future???

Quote:
Originally Posted by lukevanoort
I really don't see any major problem with the current PWM connectors, a little clip thingy like those RobotMarketplace doohickys could solve the problem on the RC end, and those RobotMarketplace doohickys could be used on the Victors. A little more reliability in the RC and better power connectors would be nice. Some metal linings on the mount holes would also be nice so you can Loctite them without destroying the piece. (Would be nice on Victors too, actually) As for the breaker block, two more 40A slots would be nice, and maybe a digital display that says the total current the robots pulling at the time. It would be perfect if it included current sensing on all the 40A slots, but that would be far to big/heavy and pricey. Maybe putting LEDs next to the slots that are popping breakers, or having another way to check for popped breakers.
You suggestions for the breaker panel are a good idea. The one time we had a mesterious breaker problem, we didn't have time to connect a serial cable up to see which breaker had tripped. Current monitoring would be invaluable in managing our power wisely. It could defiantely be done within the current size. The price would probably have to be raised though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Shaul
Sorry, I must have been unclear. I don't have a problem with the backup battery itself; it is absolutely necessary for brownouts.

The issue is that the battery is required for the servo power, a simple diode OR internal to the RC would allow the servos to run off of the main supply without the backup battery (granted without brownout protection). This protects against a failure mechanism where the battery is too low or missing, without loosing the functions of the servos (and camera). So, instead of loosing brownout protection AND servo function, you only loose brownout protection.
It would also prevent unnessary drain on the backup. Now what would be really cool is if they integrated something like that circuit they released that would actually charge the backup from the main batt.
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Last edited by Rickertsen2 : 07-05-2006 at 13:09.
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Unread 07-05-2006, 14:39
Gdeaver Gdeaver is offline
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Re: IFI Control System (OI/RC) - The Future???

Current monitoring, limiting and protection is best done at the ESC. To do this the Victors would have to get smart and the PWM method of control would have to go. Then that brings up the subject of interfacing the ESC with some kind of buss. Then there is the problem of what buss, the clock rate of the buss, latency and the master slave-protocol. RS232, RS485, CAN what ever and the async nature would greatly change the way we program the RC no matter what form or processors are in it. No matter what form the OI/RC takes in the future I hope a graphical programming environment is included as an option to program the RC. Our team was a minimalistic effort this year. Mostly rookies and we used EASY-C. Programming was not a worry and in fact the robot code was mostly written and debugged between matches on Thurs. and Fri. The quick programming and prototyping of easy c allowed us to get things worked out and working well for Sat. Made it to the finals at PHIL. With MPLAB we would have been marginal.

One last comment. The radio modems are expensive. I'll mention it again. Zigbee modules offer the opportunity to integrate the RF and master proc in the RC and could be the whole OI and they offer allot of bang for the buck.
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Unread 07-05-2006, 20:52
Rickertsen2 Rickertsen2 is offline
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Re: IFI Control System (OI/RC) - The Future???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gdeaver
Current monitoring, limiting and protection is best done at the ESC. To do this the Victors would have to get smart and the PWM method of control would have to go. Then that brings up the subject of interfacing the ESC with some kind of buss. Then there is the problem of what buss, the clock rate of the buss, latency and the master slave-protocol. RS232, RS485, CAN what ever and the async nature would greatly change
They could just add an additional analog current sense pin to keep interoperability with traditional RC equipment. Personally i think that a bus would be great. If we could daisy chain the speed controllers, the wiring would be much more organized. Just think of running a single cable over to your victors. The Victors already have a PIC. I think a multidrop buss like CAN, i2C, or RS485 would be great. I would love to see smart victors. It might cut reliability, as a compamise of any one cable could down everything downstream, but a good connector/cable combination should cut this down altogether.
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Last edited by Rickertsen2 : 07-05-2006 at 20:58.
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Unread 17-05-2006, 15:40
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Re: IFI Control System (OI/RC) - The Future???

IFI is working on a new controller. They admitted as much when I inquired on future availability for a team just starting up and needing something to work with before the build season in 2007. A new model may be available as early as late in the Fall.

This of course does not mean the FIRST must use the new controller, only that there will be a model from IFI.

My speculation is that if they were doing radical changes, it would not be announced until Kickoff if it impacts the competition.

In case IFI is reading this forum for ideas to ensure ensure acceptance of their new design my top picks are:
1) Smaller footprint for the RC
2) More secure connectors than those on PWM cables
3) USB support on the OI
4) Support for Saitek or similarly adjustable (left or right handed) controllers
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Unread 17-05-2006, 17:27
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Re: IFI Control System (OI/RC) - The Future???

Quote:
Originally Posted by JVN
PS - That dang waterproof Victor is proving more challenging than I originally thought, hopefully it'll be ready for 2008.
You heard it boys, no water game 2007! Whooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! So we don't have to have another discussion...right?
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Unread 17-05-2006, 18:18
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Re: IFI Control System (OI/RC) - The Future???

Quote:
Originally Posted by JVN
Ummm.... Nope.

The core IFI-system will be unchanged in 2007.
The only changes being made are to the radio-link. (We did testing of an early version of this system last year at IRI.)

Sorry folks, no holographic, bluetooth, ergonomic interfaces for 2007.

JV

PS - That dang waterproof Victor is proving more challenging than I originally thought, hopefully it'll be ready for 2008.
Curses! I was already honing my 3DSMax skils to design our holographic robot interface....

Seriously, though. I was bored and browsing the 32-bit PIC on Microchip's site and I was drooling over some of the features. More specifically, the compare output pins. 5 or 8 pins where you need just one timer and very little setup for the compare modules to happily spend thier time generating an endlessly repeating PWM pulsetrain. Just dump a new value into a compare register and the pulse width changes, no interrupts or function calls needed. Plus, you know, native 32-bit math.
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Unread 18-05-2006, 09:38
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Re: IFI Control System (OI/RC) - The Future???

Quote:
Originally Posted by JVN
PS - That dang waterproof Victor is proving more challenging than I originally thought, hopefully it'll be ready for 2008.
John... you're the man. I know you can handle it. Think of it as "water cooled."
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Unread 18-05-2006, 12:39
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Re: IFI Control System (OI/RC) - The Future???

Quote:
Originally Posted by JVN
The only changes being made are to the radio-link.
Hmm... this upgrade could potentially mean more radio channels than the 40 available now.

Maybe this is a sign that there will be more robots on the field at once, or more fields at the Championship, or both...??
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Unread 18-05-2006, 13:08
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Re: IFI Control System (OI/RC) - The Future???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pat Fairbank
Hmm... this upgrade could potentially mean more radio channels than the 40 available now.

Maybe this is a sign that there will be more robots on the field at once, or more fields at the Championship, or both...??
Or maybe just a more reliable radio system... I know my team and several others had problems with the radios at Great Lakes Regional this year, and there were also similar issues in 2005. Regardless of any other changes, I'm sure the new system will be more robust and reliable
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Unread 18-05-2006, 13:55
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Re: IFI Control System (OI/RC) - The Future???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Waegelin
Or maybe just a more reliable radio system... I know my team and several others had problems with the radios at Great Lakes Regional this year, and there were also similar issues in 2005. Regardless of any other changes, I'm sure the new system will be more robust and reliable
No pressure on IFI eh Jeff?

I don't think we're going to see any major changes, however I would definitely like to see a few rollbacks. Maybe back to the original non-glitchtastic PIC with a memory module hanging off it?

Definitely want screw head power connectors again. I like the standardized PWM connectors too much to trade compatibility for comfort. Hot glue works fine for that.

I know I'm going against the grain here, but does anyone else feel like we need to make less changes, not more?
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