Go to Post WAIT WAIT, I GOT IT!!!! What if.... it's just a picture of a fish. - Libby K [more]
Home
Go Back   Chief Delphi > Technical > Kit & Additional Hardware
CD-Media   CD-Spy  
portal register members calendar search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read FAQ rules

 
Closed Thread
Thread Tools Rating: Thread Rating: 8 votes, 5.00 average. Display Modes
  #16   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 21-05-2006, 18:59
jgannon's Avatar
jgannon jgannon is offline
I ᐸ3 Robots
AKA: Joey Gannon
no team
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Rookie Year: 2004
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Posts: 1,467
jgannon has a reputation beyond reputejgannon has a reputation beyond reputejgannon has a reputation beyond reputejgannon has a reputation beyond reputejgannon has a reputation beyond reputejgannon has a reputation beyond reputejgannon has a reputation beyond reputejgannon has a reputation beyond reputejgannon has a reputation beyond reputejgannon has a reputation beyond reputejgannon has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Do we have to buy a kit?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DeepWater
It really doesn't make much sense to me. Let's see:

Your first regional and KoP = $6000.
Additional regionals = $4000 each.

By my math that whole KoP = $2000.

Since (assuming the rules don't change) you must use the current year's IFI control system then you would start off with a $1150 purchase. Now consider that you will probably need to use at least a few of the motors, Victors, Spikes, at a minimum then it just really doesn't make sense. For that $2000 you get about $17,000 of stuff.
This is the best point in this whole thread. The cost of the KOP, which is apparently $2000, is less than or equal to the cost of the parts you are required to use, and substantially less when you add in what most everybody uses (CIM motors, several Victors). So, I think you're probably better off just getting the KOP.
__________________
Team 1743 - The Short Circuits
2010 Pittsburgh Excellence in Design & Team Spirit Awards
2009 Pittsburgh Regional Champions (thanks to 222 and 1218)
2007 Pittsburgh Website Award
2006 Pittsburgh Regional Champions (thanks to 395 and 1038)
2006 Pittsburgh Rookie Inspiration & Highest Rookie Seed

Team 1388 - Eagle Robotics
2005 Sacramento Engineering Inspiration
2004 Curie Division Champions (thanks to 1038 and 175)
2004 Sacramento Rookie All-Star

_
  #17   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 21-05-2006, 23:04
Beth Sweet's Avatar
Beth Sweet Beth Sweet is offline
is getting lost in her new home
FRC #0116 (Epsilon Delta), #1504 (alum), #67 (alum)
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Rookie Year: 2003
Location: Reston, VA
Posts: 1,938
Beth Sweet has a reputation beyond reputeBeth Sweet has a reputation beyond reputeBeth Sweet has a reputation beyond reputeBeth Sweet has a reputation beyond reputeBeth Sweet has a reputation beyond reputeBeth Sweet has a reputation beyond reputeBeth Sweet has a reputation beyond reputeBeth Sweet has a reputation beyond reputeBeth Sweet has a reputation beyond reputeBeth Sweet has a reputation beyond reputeBeth Sweet has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Do we have to buy a kit?

I would love to know where you guys get your math! The real cost of the KOP? Probably around $10,000 by the estimates that I've heard. The software alone is more than $2,000. Perhaps we need to take one more look at what is in the kit and its market values before we give what we might value the kit at

[Edit]Fixing values, my thoughts were even low!
__________________
This season, I was a part of a great team, with great kids who were really inspired, and who inspired me back. That's my brag, what's yours?

Last edited by Beth Sweet : 21-05-2006 at 23:23.
  #18   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 21-05-2006, 23:20
ChuckDickerson's Avatar
ChuckDickerson ChuckDickerson is offline
Mentor / Bayou & CMP Division LRI
FRC #0456 (Siege Robotics)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: May 2004
Rookie Year: 2004
Location: Vicksburg, MS
Posts: 877
ChuckDickerson has a reputation beyond reputeChuckDickerson has a reputation beyond reputeChuckDickerson has a reputation beyond reputeChuckDickerson has a reputation beyond reputeChuckDickerson has a reputation beyond reputeChuckDickerson has a reputation beyond reputeChuckDickerson has a reputation beyond reputeChuckDickerson has a reputation beyond reputeChuckDickerson has a reputation beyond reputeChuckDickerson has a reputation beyond reputeChuckDickerson has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Do we have to buy a kit?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beth Sweet
I would love to know where you guys get your math! The real cost of the KOP? Probably around $10,000 by the estimates that I've heard. The software alone is around $2,000. Perhaps we need to take one more look at what is in the kit and its market values before we give what we might value the kit at
Beth,

I pulled the $17,000 from here: http://www.usfirst.org/about/2006/FR...nce_2006_3.pdf

Kit Facts
Retail value: $17,000
56 suppliers
350 parts per kit
70% of parts are donated

It may or may not be accurate but it is apparently what FIRST believes so I will just have to go with what they tell us. I don't know for sure but I believe the number I have heard for the value of the software is closer to $10,000 alone.

In any case, I figure we pay about $2,000 for the KoP and it just doesn't make sense to me to try to compete without it since at least $2,000 worth of stuff in the KoP is required to compete.

Just my $.02
  #19   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 21-05-2006, 23:22
Lil' Lavery Lil' Lavery is online now
TSIMFD
AKA: Sean Lavery
FRC #1712 (DAWGMA)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Rookie Year: 2003
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Posts: 6,589
Lil' Lavery has a reputation beyond reputeLil' Lavery has a reputation beyond reputeLil' Lavery has a reputation beyond reputeLil' Lavery has a reputation beyond reputeLil' Lavery has a reputation beyond reputeLil' Lavery has a reputation beyond reputeLil' Lavery has a reputation beyond reputeLil' Lavery has a reputation beyond reputeLil' Lavery has a reputation beyond reputeLil' Lavery has a reputation beyond reputeLil' Lavery has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Lil' Lavery
Re: Do we have to buy a kit?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beth Sweet
I would love to know where you guys get your math! The real cost of the KOP? Probably around $10,000 by the estimates that I've heard. The software alone is around $2,000. Perhaps we need to take one more look at what is in the kit and its market values before we give what we might value the kit at
The software is waaaaay moe than $2000. I've heard various 5 digit prices for it...
__________________
Being correct doesn't mean you don't have to explain yourself.
  #20   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 21-05-2006, 23:24
GeorgeTheEng's Avatar
GeorgeTheEng GeorgeTheEng is offline
Former Lord of the Vex
AKA: George Marchant
FRC #0087 (Red Devils)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Rookie Year: 2000
Location: Mount Laurel, NJ
Posts: 166
GeorgeTheEng has much to be proud ofGeorgeTheEng has much to be proud ofGeorgeTheEng has much to be proud ofGeorgeTheEng has much to be proud ofGeorgeTheEng has much to be proud ofGeorgeTheEng has much to be proud ofGeorgeTheEng has much to be proud ofGeorgeTheEng has much to be proud ofGeorgeTheEng has much to be proud ofGeorgeTheEng has much to be proud of
Send a message via AIM to GeorgeTheEng
Re: Do we have to buy a kit?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beth Sweet
I would love to know where you guys get your math! The real cost of the KOP? Probably around $10,000 by the estimates that I've heard. The software alone is around $2,000. Perhaps we need to take one more look at what is in the kit and its market values before we give what we might value the kit at
I can't remember where, but I've seen the $16,000 in print and it may have been FIRST literature.

Consider this, even if you estimate the material kit at $10K, the autodesk software alone if more then $2000. Inventor 11 lists for $5295 on Autodesk's website (non-educational version). You can get the student versions for much less, (probably about $750 for Inventor and 3ds Max) but what we get are more then single license versions, and usually ship with more then the retail educational editions.

Ayway you look at it, the KOP prices individually are much more then we pay. The question I would pose is this, just because you don't need it this year, how can you say it won't come in handy in the future? My team collected 6 years of pneumatics kits before using it heavily one year... All those fittings and such suddenly because very useful.
__________________
George Marchant - Lockheed Martin Engineer & General Nut Case
FIRST Credentials: Team 87 Mentor | Former Director FIRST Vex Challenge
NJ FIRST Planning Committee Member & NJ FVC Committee Member
Philadelphia Alliance Regional Corporate Advisory Board Member |
FRC and FTC volunteer at too many places to list (NJ, VA, DE, PA, NY, Championship)|


"Hi my name is George and I'm a FIRST-aholic. I've been a FIRST-aholic since 2000..."
  #21   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 23-05-2006, 14:18
Nate Laverdure's Avatar
Nate Laverdure Nate Laverdure is offline
Registered User
FRC #2363
Team Role: Coach
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Rookie Year: 1999
Location: Newport News, VA
Posts: 831
Nate Laverdure has a reputation beyond reputeNate Laverdure has a reputation beyond reputeNate Laverdure has a reputation beyond reputeNate Laverdure has a reputation beyond reputeNate Laverdure has a reputation beyond reputeNate Laverdure has a reputation beyond reputeNate Laverdure has a reputation beyond reputeNate Laverdure has a reputation beyond reputeNate Laverdure has a reputation beyond reputeNate Laverdure has a reputation beyond reputeNate Laverdure has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Do we have to buy a kit?

In my opinion, it is unlikely that FIRST will never offer two different versions of the KOP. Think about all the companies and manufacturers that donate to FIRST. Their way of sponsoring this program is by donating their products to a kit that reaches over 2000 teams internationally. Even though there are items in the kit that some teams may not want to use, FIRST still has to make those items availible. My feeling is that the sponsors would be dissapointed- and annoyed- if they knew that although they had donated millions of their products to FIRST, some teams had refused to accept their donation.

Our team saw this excact situation this year with a certain piece of the KOP (I'm not going to say what it was). It was clearly a low-quality, last-minute addition to the kit, and it was of absolutely no value to our team. But nothing is free- somebody, somewhere had to pay for that piece of equipment. It would be unfair to the sponsor- not to mention ungracious and unprofessional- if we had refused that donation.
  #22   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 25-05-2006, 20:36
Joohoo's Avatar
Joohoo Joohoo is offline
Registered User
FRC #0340 (G.R.R.)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Rookie Year: 2005
Location: Rochester
Posts: 241
Joohoo is just really niceJoohoo is just really niceJoohoo is just really niceJoohoo is just really niceJoohoo is just really nice
Send a message via AIM to Joohoo Send a message via Yahoo to Joohoo
Re: Do we have to buy a kit?

Yeh, sure the excess parts are annoying but it can also be very valuable to you next season when heaven forbid you break another part and you still will have that leftover motor, servo, sensor, or pump.
  #23   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 25-05-2006, 21:45
MikeDubreuil's Avatar
MikeDubreuil MikeDubreuil is offline
Carpe diem
FRC #0125 (Nu-Trons)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Rookie Year: 1999
Location: Boston, MA
Posts: 967
MikeDubreuil has a reputation beyond reputeMikeDubreuil has a reputation beyond reputeMikeDubreuil has a reputation beyond reputeMikeDubreuil has a reputation beyond reputeMikeDubreuil has a reputation beyond reputeMikeDubreuil has a reputation beyond reputeMikeDubreuil has a reputation beyond reputeMikeDubreuil has a reputation beyond reputeMikeDubreuil has a reputation beyond reputeMikeDubreuil has a reputation beyond reputeMikeDubreuil has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to MikeDubreuil
Re: Do we have to buy a kit?

I think the real answer is: we can not know for sure based on anyone's math because the true financial information is not released publicly.

You can't assume that the KOP is $2k because even though it's $2k less for your second regional the regional shouldn't receive money. The way it works is the regional committee has to raise their own money. If they fall short of the $120k or so it takes than FIRST will chip in. If a regional relies on FIRST for too many years it may be canceled.

I also think the software quote is very misleading. The software is meant for academic use which always comes with huge discounts. I doubt FIRST ever pays a dime for the software we receive.

To sum things up, we can only guess at costs because we don't really know FIRST's financials down to the nuts and bolts.
__________________
"FIRST is like bling bling for the brain." - Woodie Flowers
  #24   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 26-05-2006, 10:30
GeorgeTheEng's Avatar
GeorgeTheEng GeorgeTheEng is offline
Former Lord of the Vex
AKA: George Marchant
FRC #0087 (Red Devils)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Rookie Year: 2000
Location: Mount Laurel, NJ
Posts: 166
GeorgeTheEng has much to be proud ofGeorgeTheEng has much to be proud ofGeorgeTheEng has much to be proud ofGeorgeTheEng has much to be proud ofGeorgeTheEng has much to be proud ofGeorgeTheEng has much to be proud ofGeorgeTheEng has much to be proud ofGeorgeTheEng has much to be proud ofGeorgeTheEng has much to be proud ofGeorgeTheEng has much to be proud of
Send a message via AIM to GeorgeTheEng
Re: Do we have to buy a kit?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeDubreuil
I also think the software quote is very misleading. The software is meant for academic use which always comes with huge discounts. I doubt FIRST ever pays a dime for the software we receive.
I'm not denying that. It's a matter of how you value it. Truthfully, even the academic prices are more then it costs Autodesk to produce the software. Look at this way, how expensive is it really to make CDs and manuals? That is the only real cost for the software, and at least on Autodesk's part, I beleive it is 100% donated. The development cost of the software is figured into the retail value and expected sales volume.

The question is how you value the kit... There are few options...
  • Based it on the actual cost to the teams (i.e the $2k value)
  • Base it on the replacement causes to the team (including academic discounts, etc)
  • Base in on the retail value (consider it lost sales to a company)
  • Base it on the acutal manufacturing costs to the sponsors

My claim is that all of these are valid. But they give you very different values.

I tend to agree with those who talk about the sponsors. I think a few would be annoyed if they provided parts as sponsorship and then found out on a certain set of teams received them.
__________________
George Marchant - Lockheed Martin Engineer & General Nut Case
FIRST Credentials: Team 87 Mentor | Former Director FIRST Vex Challenge
NJ FIRST Planning Committee Member & NJ FVC Committee Member
Philadelphia Alliance Regional Corporate Advisory Board Member |
FRC and FTC volunteer at too many places to list (NJ, VA, DE, PA, NY, Championship)|


"Hi my name is George and I'm a FIRST-aholic. I've been a FIRST-aholic since 2000..."
  #25   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 29-05-2006, 14:30
Cuog's Avatar
Cuog Cuog is offline
Registered Linux User: 390661
AKA: Alex
FRC #0422
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Rookie Year: 2004
Location: Richmond, Virginia
Posts: 852
Cuog has a reputation beyond reputeCuog has a reputation beyond reputeCuog has a reputation beyond reputeCuog has a reputation beyond reputeCuog has a reputation beyond reputeCuog has a reputation beyond reputeCuog has a reputation beyond reputeCuog has a reputation beyond reputeCuog has a reputation beyond reputeCuog has a reputation beyond reputeCuog has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Cuog
Re: Do we have to buy a kit?

there is no such thing as too many parts or useless parts, only parts you dont need yet. If there were ever an option to take a smaller scaled down KOP i would push my team not to take it. if a sponsor to my team or first was giving me free or highly discounted parts i would willingly take it. if i didnt have a use for it i would keep it packed away somewhere untill i needed it. and like people said if i wanted to go buy a copy of 3ds and Inventor alone it would cost way more than what i am paying for the entire kit and so it seems well worth it to me.
__________________
KK4KQO
http://voltair.us
Too many projects, too little time.
Closed Thread


Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Have You Attended Multiple High Schools? Do They Have FIRST Teams? KathieK General Forum 25 08-01-2009 02:16
pic: What do you do when you don't have enough money to buy 6 IFI wheels? Arefin Bari Extra Discussion 1 14-02-2006 01:14
pic: Kit Transmission Upgrade kit Andy Baker Extra Discussion 17 29-01-2006 01:27
I have questions! Do you have answers? c-squared_2006 Off-Season Events 2 07-04-2005 16:10
where to buy! Ben Mitchell General Forum 2 20-01-2002 23:14


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 17:08.

The Chief Delphi Forums are sponsored by Innovation First International, Inc.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © Chief Delphi