New bill banning the web?

[Simon Strauss]

Don't want to come off too opinionated (though i probably am), but this is one of the points at which i am reminded of why i have lost faith in our government and society, not the system just the people in it. It reminds me of an old George Carlin line that went more or less like, "our government isn't at fault, the people are because were the ones who elected them" (i paraphrased so that the idea could be expressed without the profanity) and we and our leaders need to realize this. If our government really thinks that this is any sort of solution it means that the majority of the people in the country do as well, and cant realize that it is A) not going to work due to the innovation of the youth and sick B) only attempting to cover up a problem not prevent it C) A violation of the rights of us more or less law abiding citizens D) very reminiscent of the Luddites and E) going to do more harm than gain by limiting the transfer of knowledge
Back to the issue at hand though, whatever happened to solving issues through education, Limiting the actions of a people is not only oppressive but it also has the possibility to create an underground market through creating a demand, like was seen during Prohibition, which can turn out to be detrimental than the issue was to begin with (eg. Bootleggers and the Mob). The simple solution, spend the time and other resources that are being used in the creation of this bill toward a better education system in which we can get to the kids before predators do, tell them that it is wrong and not only address this issue in the present by warning our youth but also prevent it in the future.

[Steve W]

This is somewhat a political thread but I will post my thoughts anyway.
The government does many things:
1: They listen to groups that will get them elected.
2: They reward groups who get them elected.
3: They try to protect themselves.
4: They reward themselves for the great job that they perceive that they do.
5: They protect us from others.
6: They protect us from ourselves

There are a lot of good people in government and a lot of others. The fact is that North America has it a lot better that a lot of other countries and for this we should be grateful. We should also remember that when the government starts to sway away from the good of the people that we should inform them with our voices, letters and votes.

I will end with two questions. If we got rid of Myspace and others like it would it really impact our day to day lives? If we save one child from having any of the possible mishaps that come from predators, is it worth it?

[Tristan Lall]

Originally Posted by Steve W

I will end with two questions. If we got rid of Myspace and others like it would it really impact our day to day lives? If we save one child from having any of the possible mishaps that come from predators, is it worth it?

We could argue the same thing about any perilous, but enjoyable activity: who would be disadvantaged if we banned mountain biking because of the mishaps inherent to the sport? The difference, of course, is that a sexual predator is a person who intends to do harm, while falling off of a bicycle is a simple accident. But we can still draw parallels between these two things with respect to the impacts on the victims—both can potentially inflict grevious injury, of various sorts. If it were truly a matter of protecting the victims, then it seems that we might go to any lengths to shield people from all the hazards of life. Realistically, though, I think that legislation like this is motivated by the desire to remove the possibility of people (and not merely victims) partaking in activities that are not universally recognized as constructive. It has far less to do with victims of sex crimes than it does with the embarassment of media proclaiming "Pre-Teen Internet Scandal", with a picture or video of an underdressed twelve-year-old doing something imprudent.

[Steve W]

Originally Posted by Tristan Lall

We could argue the same thing about any perilous, but enjoyable activity: who would be disadvantaged if we banned mountain biking because of the mishaps inherent to the sport? The difference, of course, is that a sexual predator is a person who intends to do harm, while falling off of a bicycle is a simple accident. But we can still draw parallels between these two things with respect to the impacts on the victims—both can potentially inflict grevious injury, of various sorts. If it were truly a matter of protecting the victims, then it seems that we might go to any lengths to shield people from all the hazards of life. Realistically, though, I think that legislation like this is motivated by the desire to remove the possibility of people (and not merely victims) partaking in activities that are not universally recognized as constructive. It has far less to do with victims of sex crimes than it does with the embarassment of media proclaiming "Pre-Teen Internet Scandal", with a picture or video of an underdressed twelve-year-old doing something imprudent.

The difference being that if you hurt someone it would be yourself not an innocent.

[Tristan Lall]

Originally Posted by Steve W

The difference being that if you hurt someone it would be yourself not an innocent.

That's essentially true (apart from crashing into a fellow rider, sending them flying off of a cliff), and addressed above. But that's not the issue at all.

It's clear that the activities that a "social networking site" (commercial or otherwise) provides are frequently enjoyable and in some respects, beneficial to their users (ChiefDelphi, for instance). It's also clear that on the Internet, as in life in general, certain risks are assumed. The trouble is, while normally we would attempt to strike a socially acceptable balance between risk and reward, this legislation deals with a miniscule risk, and imposes wide-ranging restrictions on perfectly legal, and sometimes-productive activities. And it does this in libraries, of all places—where, at least ideally, it's up to the patron to access the information that interests them, rather than the subset of that information which has been sanitized in the name of hysterical parents and vote-hungry legislators.

But most importantly, this law is not about the victims, nor the offenders, because the effect on sex crimes is bound to be next-to-zero. How many people are clueless enough to be lured into a compromising situation over the Internet, and furthermore, to do so during class hours or at the public library. Though it's disgustingly popular to sensationalize these sorts of incidents, the fact is, they're not very common at all. Restricting only one potential precursor, in two specific venues will do little to prevent the same clueless teenager from taking the same objectionable action elsewhere, be it by e-mail at home, or over their cellphone at the mall. It's ridiculous that this law is being marketed as a weapon against child exploitation, when in reality, it's just another stupid hurdle over which the schools are forced to jump (in this case, to get a certification, which, as is the way of these things, will probably affect their funding).

I'd surmise that this sort of law is as widely accepted as it is, because of the many irrational attitudes and laws concerning sex crimes that exist in the U.S.. And despite all of these "think of the children" episodes, the law doesn't serve the needs of the children particularly well, except in the minds of the multitude of lunatics who see sex criminals everywhere, and in the minds of those who exploit that perception to political advantage.

[petek]

Originally Posted by Tristan Lall

And despite all of these "think of the children" episodes, the law doesn't serve the needs of the children particularly well, except in the minds of the multitude of lunatics who see sex criminals everywhere, and in the minds of those who exploit that perception to political advantage.

Agreed, and in my opinion, worse: it diverts attention and resourses from more productive solutions like (dare I say it?) education.

These days our country is so focused on protecting everyone from percieved risks that we're becoming a herd without the will or wit to judge whether the risk is real and take appropriate steps ourselves. Present company excluded.

[Beth Sweet]

Oh man, another legislation going through because of the inability of some parents today to be parents.

Man, wouldn't the legislature's lives be so much easier if parents could pay attention to their kids, watch what they're doing, and not permit them to do things that are dangerous?

This again goes back to my "people having babies should be required to take a class on how to be parents." It is absolutely ridiculous that parents cannot be bothered to watch their kids enough to realize, hey, my 12 year old is talking to a guy who is a sexual predator, maybe I should stop that.

That being said, this bill will not have any affect IMO. The internet is not a US thing. The US has no ownership of it (although Al Gore did invent it ). Maybe they can try to control the sites that they are funding, but past that, there is nothing that they can do. It is global. Our world is global. If they want to really do something about it, they need to make some sort of global governing body with the ability to penalize and cooperation of every country (good luck on that one)

[DonRotolo]

Originally Posted by petek

These days our country is so focused on protecting everyone from percieved risks that we're becoming a herd without the will or wit to judge whether the risk is real and take appropriate steps ourselves. Present company excluded.

How true. Reminds me of a Science Fiction story titles "Extra Ellies" by Julia Ecklar. I wish it was easily available on the web.

The basis of the story is a future where every activity was gauged in terms of your Life Expectancy, or LE. Some activities (like swimming) were considered so dangerous, nobody did them anymore. The hero gets out of a jam by jumping into a pool, something the (younger) antagonist never considered someone could actually do and survive.

Heaven help us when the Government has to protect us from ourselves.

Some things, where it takes specialized expertise to evaluate the risk, are often helpful - take the National Electrical Code for instance, which is mandatory in most places. But mandating an airbag in a car is, for some, too far: there are people who weigh 80 pounds that drive - an airbag going off in their face might be worse than what it's supposed to be protecting the driver from.

Don

[Alexa Stott]

There has been a lot of talk about this bill being to prevent children from becoming victims of sex crimes. This one bill is not going to stop people from being victimized. If someone is so determined to hurt someone in that way, they will do it, no matter what they have to do to accomplish it. It's the harsh reality of life. I mean, it might stop some of the less determined ones, but some of these people could be repeat offenders or something.

If anything, this bill will actually help the predators by forcing them to become smarter and sneakier about how they go about everything. The only difference is that they will not be protected by the anonymity of the internet. Since when have sex offenders stopped doing something because they were breaking the law? It's a silly question. Just because the law would prevent them from accessing victims over the internet, they will find victims. The law does not matter to them.

It is unfortunate, but one must face the cruelty of life and realize that the attacks on innocent children will never stop. [/cynical ranting]

[KenWittlief]

I saw the results of a study done a few years ago that indicated 1 out of 4 females in the US will be sexually abused by the time they are 18. The definition of sexual abuse included a range of things over several degrees of severity.

But here's the thing, most children are abused by someone they know, an immediate family member, a close relative, or a friend / friend of the family.

Abuse by strangers is only a small percent of the problem.

If congress was serious about ending sexual child abuse the internet would be at the bottom of their list of priorities.

[EddieMcD]

<sarcasm>Yeah, because it's so hard for someone to fake their age.</sarcasm>

Originally Posted by artdutra04

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

See, sadly, words such as "predators", "terrorists", and "underage" seem to be keys to unlocking the constitution. Little do we humans know that nature already invented something to curve online predators. I think they're called "parents". Of course, in a society where everybody has to have two cars/a pool/bigass stereo set/etc and therefore multiple jobs to keep up with the status quo, there's never time for parents to spend with their kids and watch what they're doing. I consider myself lucky to have a mother who was always home when I was. Unfortunately, it's a rare situation.

I'm going to stop before I drag this way off topic.

[JoeXIII'007]

Originally Posted by EddieMcD

See, sadly, words such as "predators", "terrorists", and "underage" seem to be keys to unlocking the constitution. Little do we humans know that nature already invented something to curve online predators. I think they're called "parents". Of course, in a society where everybody has to have two cars/a pool/bigass stereo set/etc and therefore multiple jobs to keep up with the status quo, there's never time for parents to spend with their kids and watch what they're doing. I consider myself lucky to have a mother who was always home when I was. Unfortunately, it's a rare situation.

I'm going to stop before I drag this way off topic.

I don't mean to drag the thread off topic as you tried to prevent, but this is an extremely important point. The reason why these predators, terrorists of all extremes, etc. have so much power is because there are far too many parents out there that just don't give a darn care. Too many of them try to keep on living the life they want to live after the birth of their children (materialistic possibly), and often forget that its an 18+ year committment. Like you, I was also a bit lucky as well, mom and dad were always there to keep me on track and out of trouble.

Getting back to the bill in question...

The other problem: it doesn't matter which extreme the majority of people that run government are on, for today's government is far too disconnected from the demands of its constituents. BUT, this is not to say that its constituents have not been far too ignorant depending on it and going off of false beliefs (the government can do anything, the government is responsible [what happened to responsibility in the hands of the parents, citizens, and working people, hobbits, elves, dwarfs, etc. etc.?], the government this, that, etc.).

The thing is, it is very dangerous when people put too much responsibility into the hands of government, for responsibility can rather quickly convert to power, which can easily be abused.

2 cents.

-Joe

[Lil' Lavery]

Don't blame the parents. Don't blame the victims. Sure, the parents SHOULD take better care of their kids. Sure, some of the victims SHOULDN'T "advertise" themselves as they do on the sites like MySpace. But it is still not an invitation to commit a crime. To think that it is, in any way, the victims fault, is completely rediculous and terrible.

Originally Posted by AtalanteStar25

There has been a lot of talk about this bill being to prevent children from becoming victims of sex crimes. This one bill is not going to stop people from being victimized. If someone is so determined to hurt someone in that way, they will do it, no matter what they have to do to accomplish it. It's the harsh reality of life. I mean, it might stop some of the less determined ones, but some of these people could be repeat offenders or something.

If anything, this bill will actually help the predators by forcing them to become smarter and sneakier about how they go about everything. The only difference is that they will not be protected by the anonymity of the internet. Since when have sex offenders stopped doing something because they were breaking the law? It's a silly question. Just because the law would prevent them from accessing victims over the internet, they will find victims. The law does not matter to them.

It is unfortunate, but one must face the cruelty of life and realize that the attacks on innocent children will never stop. [/cynical ranting]

And because of that, we should just give up on trying to curb it and inhibit it in any way?