Voting on making English the official US language (Was: "Hm...")

[Matt Attallah]

Oooo, man. Here we go. See, this is why I posted this. I know you all want to get your opinions out there - but comon now, as soon as someone sees different than you - you get in a huge uproar.

My view is that it should be English. My father came here and learned it. So can anyone else - just put fourth a little effort. Start adding one language - than who is to say it's fair to add JUST that language? Here in the SE Michigan area - should arab be added to everything because of the city of Dearborn?

Just keep it the way it has been - English. YOU moved here, we didn't displace you. IMHO you have to bend to the home team, not the home team bend for you...

[Cody Carey]

Originally Posted by M. Krass

...maybe because treating any other human as something less than equal is, fundamentally, a crappy thing to do?

We treat criminals like less than equal, do you have a problem with that?

A criminal is someone who breaks the law,

An illegal alien is a foreign national who resides in another country unlawfully,


You do the math.

[Morgan Gillespie]

Yes but, let me give an example, lets say I trespassed on a clearly marked trespassing zone, where the consequences are I get arrested and removed from said area. Now lets say life is clearly better in this enclosed area, and I also come to find out I can enter said area forever yet, I have to go through a lengthy process. If I choose to go in there without going through the correct process it is considered trespassing

Why isn't coming into the country without going through immigration considered trespassing?

[Squirrelrock]

is there a difference?

[Jaine Perotti]

Originally Posted by Tristan Lall

The problem with this renewed push for an official language in the U.S. is that in some influential circles, it's not at all about the convenience of communication, and all about the marginalization of those who aren't stereotypically American.

Excellent post, Tristan!

Encouraging immigrants to learn English is not exclusionary if done soley for the purpose of bettering communication. As someone here already said, most communication in this country is in English anyways, and it is still necessary for newcomers to this country to learn English in order to succeed.

Keeping this in mind, an official declaration of our language is really not needed. The fact that there is no need for such a law calls into question the motivation for introducing such a bill. Personally, I believe that the motivation is to treat non-native English speakers as second class citizens.

Originally Posted by Cody C

If it is illegal by our laws to come here through less than proper channels, then why shouldn't we treat those who do come here through those channels like criminals? If they tried to skip over the "transparent and just" system, why should they be shoved back into it? I agree that marginalizing a LEGAL minority is nothing but racist, but If the minority's very being here is breaking the law, then I don't see why they shouldn't be marginalized.

I agree that those who are criminals should be treated as such. The problem that I have is with the discrimination against those who, like Tristan said, are not stereotypically "American". I feel that our immigration system intentionally makes it very difficult to acquire a legal status - not because of the fear of terrorists (the system has been in place since before 9/11) - but because they want to "keep out" those who they perceive as being a threat to the existing culture (the Anglo-Saxon bubble that I referred to in my first post). This has happened throughout American history - the "old" immigrants have always made it difficult for the "new" immigrants to establish their identities as Americans.

When people complain about immigrants (legal ones) taking "American" jobs, I feel frustrated because in my view, these people ARE just as American as I am! Why is it that people who don't speak English are treated as something less than American?! This treatment is especially hypocritical coming from those who fit the "American" stereotype - people of European descent whose ancestors were immigrants once too! For example, my great grandfather came here from Italy speaking no English. But he worked hard making a living on a farm, had children, and in this way he established his family in this country. For a long period of time, Italians were discriminated against in this country and were viewed as "non-American". But I, his descendant, am now considered by society to be an "American". Why can't we allow modern immigrants to establish themselves in the same way? Why can't they be "Americans" too? Why can't they shape American culture in the same way that the English, Italians, Irish, Polish, Germans, etc. did before them?

To me, "American" isn't defined by ethnicity. You are an American if you have a desire to live in and contribute to this community. The deliberate attempt to strip people of their cultural identities does not contribute positively to the nation. The differences between cultures - and consequently those people's perspectives - are the things which make this country great. Establishing an official language (when it is not needed) is simply symbolic of trying to standardize the definition of "American" and prevent minorities from making a positive change to this country.

So, with that said, the problem I have is not so much with the direct effects of the law would be - but instead the message of racial discrimination that this law would represent.

[Tristan Lall]

Originally Posted by Cody C

If it is illegal by our laws to come here through less than proper channels, then why shouldn't we treat those who do come here through those channels like criminals? If they tried to skip over the "transparent and just" system, why should they be shoved back into it? I agree that marginalizing a LEGAL minority is nothing but racist, but If the minority's very being here is breaking the law, then I don't see why they shouldn't be marginalized.

Why shouldn't you give them a chance? It's obvious that they want to be in the U.S., so put them through a broadly permissive immigration system, rather than kicking them out. Nobody wants to be a part of the immigration system that currently exists (skilled workers excepted), because it's deliberately very difficult to succeed at going through it. It's expensive, it's time-consuming and it's designed in such a way that if you screw up with a deadline or a payment, you can be kicked to the back of the line, setting you back up to a decade. So they cheat their way in, hoping to avoid a system in which they rightfully have little faith. They're not criminals in the same way that rapists and theives are criminals—their crime is neither against person, nor property, nor public order. Their crimes are against the state, and of all entities, the state is in the best position to offer them a way to improve their lives, rather than just eject them reflexively.

You know all of those jobs that get shipped overseas, because American workers want too much money for the task (or because their employers want to pay too little)? Let the immigrants ease their way into those roles. That's not far from what's been happening in Canada for decades—as one group of immigrants establishes modest prosperity after perhaps a generation of relatively low-brow jobs, another group tends to fill the roles vacated by the upwardly mobile. Contrast this with what America, where all too often, the minorities get trapped in the low end of the socioeconomic spectrum, often for generations at a time. (These are trends, and don't reflect every situation in these countries—but all the same, the contrast is worth noting.)

If America were overpopulated, or utopian, or otherwise unsuited to taking on more residents, I could see a restrictive immigration policy being useful. As it stands, though, perhaps the largest reason that America gets away with restricting immigration as much as it does is the high birth rate (as compared to all other industrialized nations).

Originally Posted by Cody C

We treat criminals like less than equal, do you have a problem with that?

A criminal is someone who breaks the law,

An illegal alien is a foreign national who resides in another country unlawfully,


You do the math.

Too easy. By your definition, by travelling at 61 mph on a road marked for 60 is makes the driver of the vehicle a criminal. Should we deport him? Or, if he's from America, should we imprison him?

If not, why not? The answer, of course, is that there's a wide variety of crime available to be committed. The supposition here is that being an illegal immigrant is hardly a big deal—it's like speeding, more than it's like murder. And so, the response should take into account more than just the fact that it's a crime; like speeding, it may be necessary to tolerate some amount of it, if it's impractical to write a law that accords violators a little flexibility. For the majority of immigrants (the peaceful, harmless ones), that flexibility should come in the form of the opportunity to contribute to American society, while simultaneously contributing to their own improvement. That is far more humane a solution than sending them back in a prisoners' bus.

Originally Posted by Cody C

If other countries have absolutely no problem adopting English as their language, Then I don't se why the U.S.A. does.

In parts of the developing world, communication in English serves as a means to rise out of poverty, through relations with the developed, English-speaking nations. In the developed world, it has become a language of commerce, because of its ubiquity. But note that few countries have adopted English to the exclusion of their native languages—in fact, you really ought to be arguing that the U.S. adopt Spanish or Mandarin, because those languages serve the same purpose in America as English does in India—facilitating communications with trading partners.

[Andrew Blair]

The majority of debate here has been discussing illegal immigration like a cafeteria. Why shouldn't you let the weird kids come sit at your table? It's not an infringment on your rights, there's lots of seats, right?

The problem with illegal immigration (Which, by the way, has hijacked the actual topic of this thread) is that it's not dealing with lunch tables, it's more like dealing with houses. Quite accurately, it's like having random children sneak into your house and eat your food.

Bottom line is that aliens use roads, schools, services, welfare through illegal channels, and sometimes even push citizens out of work. Sometimes. Problem is, these sneaky kids are deprived and hungry, and don't ask to come in by ringing the doorbell, because they might not get fed. They eat out of your cereal boxes, and sometimes push your own kids out of their seats. But only because they have less than those kids.

Problem is, the grayscale has returned.


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On topic (kind of), I see why you brought this bill to our attention. We must act quickly! The Democrats are slowly converting our country to a confused ethnicity so that we might be a more marketable sell to Belgium!

Battle Stations!!!

[JaneYoung]

At the university where I work, we have students from all over the world. They come to our office seeking help/services. The information provided to them spoken, written, on-line, counseled - is in English. The forms distributed and the referrals given are in English. Sometimes interpreters are needed to help the students understand better. Our purpose is to help every student enrolled in the university to achieve success in their education, supporting them along the road to their goals: careers, more education, research - degrees.

- a thought -
- a friend of mine left a month ago to reside in Shanghai, China. Her husband has been hired by a company to teach English there. She is taking classes in Chinese.

[Ben Lauer]

Originally Posted by Cody C

We treat criminals like less than equal, do you have a problem with that?
A criminal is someone who breaks the law,
An illegal alien is a foreign national who resides in another country unlawfully,

I think the flaw in this statement is with the given. Where does it say that we treat criminals like less than equal? Criminals are given the rights of Due Process, which realistically contains all of the bill of rights within it. We give criminal the necessities to live and every right given to them in the Constitution.

I am not sure of the reason for this thread. If you wanted a chat about making English the official language of the USA, then that is what you will get, but if you wanted a thread about whether we should force immigrants (legal or not) to learn our language and value our ideas and honor our holidays, then you should have asked for that.

Just because the official language of the USA could be English, doesn't mean that there will be a shortage of other signs/labels/books in other languages. Go to Mexico, or Europe or travel to another country. What will you see? Signs, in many different languages, many in English, and Spanish. The solution? Be active , don't force others to learn your way, adapt to the changes in society and the culture of the United States, LEARN Spanish, It will make you desirable and marketable, and you will have unimaginable job security.

[Eugenia Gabrielov]

Let me share with you a story.

I have tutored children in the sciences who burst into tears of joy when they realized I was bilingual. One of those kids, who could not understand math and science before, is going to attend a science and engineering magnet high school this fall, is planning to join a FIRST team, and wants to become an Engineer.

Did I mention his family immigrated illegally, that he is the only one who remotely understands English, and that both of his parents work 2 & 3 jobs (respectively) to ensure that their children have opportunities?

Put aside politics for just a moment, Chief Delphi! Start thinking about actual people, and maybe you won't be arguing among yourselves so much.

[Tristan Lall]

Originally Posted by Andrew Blair

The majority of debate here has been discussing illegal immigration like a cafeteria. Why shouldn't you let the weird kids come sit at your table? It's not an infringment on your rights, there's lots of seats, right?

The problem with illegal immigration (Which, by the way, has hijacked the actual topic of this thread) is that it's not dealing with lunch tables, it's more like dealing with houses. Quite accurately, it's like having random children sneak into your house and eat your food.

Bottom line is that aliens use roads, schools, services, welfare through illegal channels, and sometimes even push citizens out of work. Sometimes. Problem is, these sneaky kids are deprived and hungry, and don't ask to come in by ringing the doorbell, because they might not get fed. They eat out of your cereal boxes, and sometimes push your own kids out of their seats. But only because they have less than those kids.

So, would you prefer a sneaky American freeloader to a sneaky Mexican freeloader? Because that's the distinction that we have to consider. There exist plenty of Americans who do everything that the illegal immigrants do, with respect to using American resources. All that distinguishes them from the Mexicans is their country of origin.

Note also, that there is a not-farfetched perception that America is the house with an excess of food, where it wouldn't be such a big deal, if a little bit of cereal went missing occasionally. Despite the best efforts of some of the fanatics out there, it's plainly obvious that the influx of illegal immigrants is not unsustainable, so long as they don't all crowd the foyer, so to speak. To prolong this analogy, if they spread out around the house, and do some cleaning, in exchange for food, they're not such a drain after all. They're making themselves useful. Give them half a chance to make themselves useful, and you'll be surprised at what they might accomplish.

Originally Posted by Andrew Blair

On topic (kind of), I see why you brought this bill to our attention. We must act quickly! The Democrats are slowly converting our country to a confused ethnicity so that we might be a more marketable sell to Belgium!

Battle Stations!!!

In the good old days, when ethnicity wasn't confused, which ethnicity was it? Be careful what you wish for.

[Andrew Blair]

Originally Posted by Tristan Lall

So, would you prefer a sneaky American freeloader to a sneaky Mexican freeloader? Because that's the distinction that we have to consider. There exist plenty of Americans who do everything that the illegal immigrants do, with respect to using American resources. All that distinguishes them from the Mexicans is their country of origin.

Oh yeah there are-way more of them probably than illegals. But, many of them pay taxes, and those that don't are pursued by welfare officers and the IRS.

There's always another side to the argument, everythings always a little blurred- hence grayscale.

[Matt Attallah]

As cruel and cold-hearted as this sounds.

You have no one to blame but their parents.

It's proven that Illegal immigrants have taken millions in funds. Not to say that there is MORE than a fair share of legal immigrants/citizens that abuse the system, but it's stretched thin enough.

Again, my father went through this coming from Palestine with the war w/ Israel going on and yada, yada, yada. ANYONE can go through the process. Yes, it does take time - but is it DOABLE and is put in place for a reason.

[Ryan Dognaux]

My view is pretty simple with the whole thing. Regardless of whether English becomes the official language, I think if you live in this country then you should make an effort to learn English. Just as if you were living in France, you should learn French, and German if living in Germany. Learn the language of the country you're living in.

[Cody Carey]

Originally Posted by Tristan Lall

Why shouldn't you give them a chance? It's obvious that they want to be in the U.S., so put them through a broadly permissive immigration system, rather than kicking them out. Nobody wants to be a part of the immigration system that currently exists (skilled workers excepted), because it's deliberately very difficult to succeed at going through it. It's expensive, it's time-consuming and it's designed in such a way that if you screw up with a deadline or a payment, you can be kicked to the back of the line, setting you back up to a decade. So they cheat their way in, hoping to avoid a system in which they rightfully have little faith.

Because they are here Illegaly, We don't let a theif take a car and keep it. The theif cheated his way into the car, hoping to avoid a system that is expensive and time-consuming, a system that makes it so that if he is late on a payment he loses his car. But we still take the car away Because it was wrong of him to take it in the first place!

Originally Posted by Tristan Lall

You know all of those jobs that get shipped overseas, because American workers want too much money for the task (or because their employers want to pay too little)? Let the immigrants ease their way into those roles.

Because that accomplishes the exact same thing that sending jobs over seas does, it takes a job away from a legal american citizen, and gives it to somebody else, who does not live in america rightfully.

Originally Posted by Tristan Lall

Too easy. By your definition, by travelling at 61 mph on a road marked for 60 is makes the driver of the vehicle a criminal. Should we deport him? Or, if he's from America, should we imprison him?

No, we shouldn't. The penalty for speeding is a small ticket. The penalty for border hopping is being deported. That statement made absolutely no sense. He drives over the speed limit knowing full well that if he gets caught, he will get a ticket.They come over the boarder knowing full well that they will be deported if they are caught.

A Criminal is a criminal, different crimes earn different punishments. people can't hide behind their ethnicity. I don't care if you are Mexican, Chinese or any other nationality... to get into this country, you have to go through the proper channels, plain and simple. you don't sneak in and then expect to be able to stay. I wonder what happens at Disney World when they catch someone sneaking in.