How much does Israel really cost the US tax payer??

[Matt Attallah]

<<all copyrighted material redacted>>


http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stats...of_israel.html

I'm putting this out there for a reason. This is not rumors. There are FACTS that are kept 'swept under the rug.' I complain about people not being efficient with taxes n' what not - and I'm not saying this is 100% the cause, but this sure as heck a good portion of it.

Next time you think to yourself about the person that is doing NOTHING for YOUR taxes, remember this.

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http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/...o_Israel1.html

A break down since the state of Israel was formed of US aid.

[Morgan Gillespie]

I have seen you post politics many times yet you just post the articles not adding to them in any way shape or form, according to past posts you do it to see others opinions. Before we post ours we would like to see what yours is, I also recommend not posting articles just to stir up something. It is ok to post things like this once in a while but every couple of days/weeks is just too much.

Sorry if I sounded a bit harsh, I had stayed up for several hours waiting for the eMachines customer service chat to open up, only to get redirected to the customer support phone number. Which opens at 7...

[Matt Attallah]

Originally Posted by Mercury Rising

I have seen you post politics many times yet you just post the articles not adding to them in any way shape or form, according to past posts you do it to see others opinions. Before we post ours we would like to see what yours is, I also recommend not posting articles just to stir up something. It is ok to post things like this once in a while but every couple of days/weeks is just too much.

1. Dude. Who is "we?" Do you speak for Brandon? Ken? Paul?

Didn't think so. Keep your posts to YOURSELF.

2. So what that I post 3-4-5 things in a week? We're all mature enough here to realize what is going on and not get into a fight about it. Are YOU implying that this is TOO much for the kids/adults here? IMHO these people here are probably ready for this stuff than 90% of the kids AND adults out in the general U.S. population.

3. What's your point? I don't want people to be biased. I'll speak my mind regardless if I post first or last - but fine, you wanna poke the bear, you got it.

***MY thoughts on this***

I feel this is BS. I honestly don't see why we send this much to Israel. They are quite self-sufficient, yet we let other nations hang on by a thread? Look at Palestine - they need that money. Look at Lebanon right now - they are in DIRE NEED for that money due to the bombings going on. Africa - they can use it to help against hunger and help out with development of their economy. There are TONS of countries that can even use a portion of that. Heck - the HOME TEAM can use some of that right now. OUR OWN money situation is quite stretched. I don't feel that we are in dire straights - but instead of seeing that money go to Israel why not take care of us? Here's one point - in Michigan (if you view the portal) Gov Granholm put a 2 million budget for Michigan FIRST teams - but now it's gone thanks to the nation's financial situation. IMHO this is bull. Or what about helping out Katrina areas? Not even so much the people - but their economic development? The reconstruction of houses/businesses/etc...? Heck - I'd rather see it go to the 'War on Iraq' than there. We benefit next to nothing in relation to what is given.

Feel better? I see I'm startin to grab people's attention...

[Eugenia Gabrielov]

Originally Posted by Matt Attallah

1. Dude. Who is "we?" Do you speak for Brandon? Ken? Paul?

Didn't think so. Keep your posts to YOURSELF.

2. So what that I post 3-4-5 things in a week? We're all mature enough here to realize what is going on and not get into a fight about it. Are YOU implying that this is TOO much for the kids/adults here? IMHO these people here are probably ready for this stuff than 90% of the kids AND adults out in the general U.S. population.

3. What's your point? I don't want people to be biased. I'll speak my mind regardless if I post first or last - but fine, you wanna poke the bear, you got it.

Are we all mature enough to act responsibly if there's a fire alarm like the one at IRI yesterday? Sure! We'll laugh and make a fuss for a bit but we'll go outside and be mature.

Does that mean you pull the fire alarm every day just to make sure? No.

Stop. Wait a week or two. It won't kill your expirement. I'm sorry, but I'm entirely with Mercury Rising on this one. This is a tense issue, a big current events issue, and practically a political nightmare. Let it rest for a bit - it's the mature thing to do.

[Matt Attallah]

But what I posted here is completely true AND doesn't have anything to do with politics.

And for all the PMs - THIS IS TRUE INFORMATION - THIS IS NOT "JUNK" THAT I MADE UP!!! THAT'S WHY I POSTED UP LINKS!!!

I guess that I'll let the whole thing go. Seriously - this my be a flame in 99% of people's eyes - but it's not.

You guys are TOO uptight about things. IT IS THE INTERNET. Don't like it? DON'T VIEW IT. No one forced you to post/view this topic did they? I even stated the topic quite clearly. I know ALL the rules when I signed up and have reminded them to people -but seriously, this is one of the downfalls of CD.com.

Whatever, I'm done on my soap box. Peace.

[Simon Strauss]

Matt,

All political aspects of this aside lets take a look at how what you are doing portrays your involvement in FIRST and the Chiefdelphi forums. As I'm sure you know FIRST was designed as a program through which engineers, programmers and other experienced peoples such as yourself could teach America's and ultimately the worlds high school aged students about their fields. The role of these people was intended to act not only as teachers in fields that these kids might not otherwise experience at their age but to also act as proper role models to counteract the influence of the corrupt and ill intended world in which we live. How do your current actions come into play in these goals? Your getting into a fight with High School kids, what does that say about your ability as a mentor in this program? Your telling kids to get off the Internet if they don't like what you post and although you are perfectly within your right to say this and do all that you have done just keep this in mind. We (users of CD) have chosen to involve ourselves with a website aimed toward providing aid and the sharing of ideas and information among those involved and interested in the fields related to FIRST robotics, not an all around discussion forum.

Just know that its not because of your views and my disagreement with them that I'm posting this, in fact some other place and time id love to have a political discussion with you, you seem to have some good ideas and actually know what your talking about. The reason why i said what i have is because I'm disappointed with your actions as a FIRST mentor and user of this site, it is in fact you who is participating in the downfall which you mentioned in your making fun of two very nice kids of who happen to be part of the group who you as a mentor are supposed to be teaching and helping.



If anyone feels that i have offended or misrepresented them in my comments i am sorry and feel free to neg rep me as much as you wish.

[JamesBrown]

I am also going to have to agree that this is not the time nor the place, in addition to what others have said keep in mind CD is very much an international forum, including members of teams in Israel. In my opinion, even the title of your thread could be found offensive by some members. There are many great forums for debating political topics, CD is not one of these. I considered responding to the article but decided against it. Also look at this practically, people who intend to read that entire article, whether posted on here or on the site you linked to ( A site that I have found to be very hypocritical) or any where else for that matter, do not come to CD for political discussion, I have for a long time now been a member of two different political forums, I would be more than happy to provide you with links to these.

Thank you,


James

[Matt Krass]

Originally Posted by Matt Attallah

But what I posted here is completely true AND doesn't have anything to do with politics.

And for all the PMs - THIS IS TRUE INFORMATION - THIS IS NOT "JUNK" THAT I MADE UP!!! THAT'S WHY I POSTED UP LINKS!!!

I guess that I'll let the whole thing go. Seriously - this my be a flame in 99% of people's eyes - but it's not.

You guys are TOO uptight about things. IT IS THE INTERNET. Don't like it? DON'T VIEW IT. No one forced you to post/view this topic did they? I even stated the topic quite clearly. I know ALL the rules when I signed up and have reminded them to people -but seriously, this is one of the downfalls of CD.com.

Whatever, I'm done on my soap box. Peace.

All caps, excessive exclamations, and "Whatever" are not good ways to convey a sense of a maturity. I agree with the previous posts as well, give it a break, just reposting articles here is silly, if you want to discuss something, then start a discussion. We're not animals, don't throw something at us just to see how we react.

Keep in mind that these forums are a representation of FIRST, Delphi Corporation, Team 47 and now Innovation FIRST, posting things like this is fairly likely to offend somebody, especially when you do it just to stir things up and react violently to people saying they're bothered by it. That is not something any of the aforementioned organizations want to deal with, and I don't blame them. I think if you're going to post something for the sole purpose of stirring things up, you should probably rethink it.

[Ryan Dognaux]

I'm just throwing this out. I come to Chief Delphi to get away from the mundane, everyday news. It's part of what makes the forum appealing to me. If I want to read world news, I'll go to digg.

I think you should be able to ask others what they think on various situations around the world, but copying and pasting exact text from websites that are not major news sources isn't the best idea. I'm not even positive if I would consider these links to be credible sources.

[Tristan Lall]

For what it's worth, I certainly don't mind it when these threads show up in the Chit-Chat forum. If there's a place for open discussion of non-robotic things on ChiefDelphi, this is it. So in principle, it suits me just fine that Matt posted this.

However, after having read the article, I don't think that it's at all fair to say that it "is completely true AND doesn't have anything to do with politics".

By the very nature of the American government, anything that has to do with the cost to the taxpayer is inextricably linked to politics. And similarly, foreign policy is determined in large part by politicians who don't always apply academic rigour and detachedness to their decisions. In short, it has a great deal to do with politics.

But that's not a problem in and of itself—discussion of politics is a healthy thing. And I also have to object to the criticism levelled at Matt that the Israeli members of the forum might be offended. I should hope that they would take criticism of their government at face value, rather than choosing to believe that those statements were intended as personal insults, or insults directed at their heritage or culture. We should be comfortable criticizing any government, when injustice is perceived, and we should be using facts and logic to do it.

Now, the big question: truth. I've got to say that while I'm not opposed to the conclusions reached in the article, I don't think that it's necessarily a credible source upon which to base that assessment. Indeed, the facts and figures are accompanied with a substantial dose of editorializing. It's the kind of writing that I'd expect from a poster on an internet forum, rather than something with an academic, neutral tone. It would help if they provided some more substantial references for their claims, since some of them seem to constitute rather pointed accusations.

In essence, to unreservedly call this the truth is a gross overstatement. But I think that there is the potential for significant truth behind the unfortunate veneer of political invective that permeates the article. I, for one, agree that the U.S. does provide a disproportionate amount of funding for Israeli interests—but I'm not convinced that the motivation is as simplistic as as outlined in the article. Implying that the source of most of the American policy is the covert action of lobbying groups (and specifically the AIPAC, which the Washington Report pointedly opposes) ascribes malice when the genuinely held beliefs of numerous politicians may principally be to blame. If they believe that they're doing the right thing, the lobbying is merely reinforcement of that belief, rather than the source of it. And the related discussion of what constitutes the "right thing" is both substantial and complex—this by no means the domain of absolute truth.

Lastly, just as a point of order, it would be helpful to simply link to the source, and comment on quotations derived from it.