IFI Critique

[seanwitte]

I just want to point out that, using the current IFI hardware, you can use any processor you want. You can use the existing serial port library from Kevin Watson to build out a protocol to read OI inputs (and optionally local sensor inputs) from the RC. You can then send your PWM commands back to the RC. What you do in between is up to you. The RC will just pass OI inputs to your processor and listen for PWM updates. Very simple, and teams have already done it. With any chip you try to use the major roadblock will be PWM generation. Why not use the RC for that?

[BiTurboS4]

Originally Posted by Daniel_LaFleur

Heres a hint for you all (real world here):

IFI is not in business to supply FIRST with OIs, RCs and Victors. IFI is in business to make money (just like every other company out there).

They make their money selling OIs and such, but that isn't their goal. If it was they would probably be out of business by now.

When a company (in this case FIRST) single sources and goes with a proprietary design (as in IFIs), it usually gets an initial price break. However, the company must be ever vigilant against that single source from then using its propriatery design to increase prices higher than the standard market.

It would be in FIRSTs best interest to reevaluate its position with such propriatery design companies every year to see if it would be better to find a more standarized version...or at least have some bargaining chips with the propriatery vendor.

Didn't FIRST pay IFI to design these systems and retain the IP related to the OI and Arena Controller? Wouldn't be suprised if IFI didn't really own the designs they produced. Curious to see what the contracts said.

[BrianBSL]

Originally Posted by BiTurboS4

Didn't FIRST pay IFI to design these systems and retain the IP related to the OI and Arena Controller? Wouldn't be suprised if IFI didn't really own the designs they produced. Curious to see what the contracts said.

Considering IFI owns some patent on robot arena control or something, I get the impression they own the designs. I'll see if I can dig it up later.

Edit:
http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-P...&RS=PN/6674259
(if that works, otherwise patent # 6,674,259)

System and method for managing and controlling a robot competition

Abstract

A system and method for operating robots in a robot competition. One embodiment of the system may include operator interfaces, where each operator interface is operable to control movement of a respective robot. A respective operator interface may be in communication with an associated operator radio, where each radio may have a low power RF output signal. A robot controller may be coupled to each robot in the robot competition. A robot radio may be coupled to a respective robot and in communication with a respective robot controller and operator radio. The robot radios may have a low power RF output signal while communicating with the respective operator radios. Alternatively, the radios may be short range radios, where a distance of communication may be a maximum of approximately 500 feet.

[BiTurboS4]

Originally Posted by BrianBSL

Considering IFI owns some patent on robot arena control or something, I get the impression they own the designs. I'll see if I can dig it up later.

Actually I could have sworn it was an obscenely vague patent, that if you were to look at it. Really shows nothing relating to design, but the act of controlling a robotic competition. Though I wouldn't quote me on that.

[BrianBSL]

Originally Posted by BiTurboS4

Actually I could have sworn it was an obscenely vague patent, that if you were to look at it. Really shows nothing relating to design, but the act of controlling a robotic competition. Though I wouldn't quote me on that.

Agreed - I wasn't saying the patent was on the actual designs, but rather that it would seem logical that if they owned the patent they would own the designs. I obviousally don't know for sure though.

[Joe Johnson]

Originally Posted by BrianBSL

Considering IFI owns some patent on robot arena control or something, I get the impression they own the designs.

I am not a lawyer nor do I play one on TV but I do have 18 patents and quite a bit of experience with patent related issues. I am sure that it is possible to design a system that does not voilate this patent.

Furthermore, a patent is nothing more than a license to sue someone for violating the patent. Once in court, the presumption is that the patent is valid, but the court may decide to invalidate the patent for many reasons including existing prior art that may not have been considered by the patent examiner.

America is a "first to invent" country (as opposed to most of the rest of the world which "first to file"). The upshot of this is that if a competition that can document that they were using such a system to run their competitions prior to the priority date on the patent application (October 5, 2001), the patent would be declared invalid.

Bottom line: Despite its 58 claims, I do not view this patent as a particularly strong.

Joe J.

[BrianBSL]

Originally Posted by Joe Johnson

I am not a lawyer nor do I play one on TV but I do have 18 patents and quite a bit of experience with patent related issues. I am sure that it is possible to design a system that does not voilate this patent.

Furthermore, a patent is nothing more than a license to sue someone for violating the patent. Once in court, the presumption is that the patent is valid, but the court may decide to invalidate the patent for many reasons including existing prior art that may not have been considered by the patent examiner.

America is a "first to invent" country (as opposed to most of the rest of the world which "first to file"). The upshot of this is that if a competition that can document that they were using such a system to run their competitions prior to the priority date on the patent application (October 5, 2001), the patent would be declared invalid.

Bottom line: Despite its 58 claims, I do not view this patent as a particularly strong.

Joe J.

I wasn't arguing anything about working around their patent etc - just saying it was logical that since they own the patent they own the designs on their current products (not FIRST).

I don't think too highly of the current patent system...espically companies like NTP and even Apple who abuse it.

[Joe Johnson]

An open letter to All,

Despite my relatively high rep points and my long time participation on these fora, I too am capable of overreaction and flamewars.

I have demonstrated poor judgment in my posts on this thread.

I have made charges I cannot substantiate and I have made things personal where a business-like tone was more appropriate. Perhaps even worse, I have been mean spirited and unkind.

I regret my tone and my behavior. I ask all readers of these fora to forgive me. I will endeavour to keep my emotions in check in future postings.

Best Regards,

Joe J.

P.S. A special thanks to my well respected brethren who helped me see the error of my ways via PMs, IM's, and phone calls.

[Matt Krass]

Originally Posted by Joe Johnson

An open letter to All,

Despite my relatively high rep points and my long time participation on these fora, I too am capable of overreaction and flamewars.

I have demonstrated poor judgment in my posts on this thread.

I have made charges I cannot substantiate and I have made things personal where a business-like tone was more appropriate. Perhaps even worse, I have been mean spirited and unkind.

I regret my tone and my behavior. I ask all readers of these fora to forgive me. I will endeavour to keep my emotions in check in future postings.

Best Regards,

Joe J.

P.S. I special thanks to my well respected brethren who helped me see the error of my ways via PMs, IM's, and phone calls.

More than forgiven Joe, everyones allowed to slip up once in a while, even you. You still deserve all those rep points and I look forward to your future postings.

[Jack Jones]

Out of Stock
No more this year

Out of Stock
No more this year

...

Out of Stock
No more this year

[Kevin Sevcik]

Jack,

Aside from the fact that that seems only marginally related to the original topic and subsequent discussions.... Did you have that problem during the actual season or after the season? During the season is much more worrying, after all.

[Daniel_LaFleur]

Because of the small market for parts and minimal orders, IFI wisely keeps little to no stock during the offseason. Since they usually make small changes to the OI and RC each year it is also wise for them to use up inventory.

This 'out of stock' should be normal.

[Jack Jones]

Originally Posted by Daniel_LaFleur

Because of the small market for parts and minimal orders, IFI wisely keeps little to no stock during the offseason. Since they usually make small changes to the OI and RC each year it is also wise for them to use up inventory.

This 'out of stock' should be normal.

That may work for them, but it doesn't do much for the customer. And, it doesn't excuse running out of RCs before ship date. And, please, do not suggest that upgrading '05 was an acceptable alternative.

It's come to the point where there is no "off season", as evidenced by the volume here on ChiefDelphi. IMO, IRI is way better than any Regional, and this year was much better than the Champs. We would have been better prepared had IFI been there for us. They were one for four at having what we needed, no matter what season.

[MsDouglas]

HI

Anyone ever had a problem with an order from IFI. They screwed up and order and it has never been resolved?

Thx

[Billfred]

I had an issue with IFI working on a project. I ordered two kitbot top plates, but they didn't arrive with my order. I called IFI, they checked--it didn't ship from their other warehouse. So a few days later (albeit a little late for my project), two Kitbot top plates arrived at USC. I just wrote it off as a screwup; stuff like that just happens now and then.