Poll - Legalities

[Steve W]

Ken, all rules are in the interest of someone. It just seems that if they are not in "my best interest" then they can be discarded.

To be truthful I am a bit surprised by some of the answers especially mentors. We are suppose to be setting examples and yet we are condoning breaking rules. Can a mentor honestly expect a student to hear them say we must follow FIRST's rules but it is OK to break a venues (which is also a FIRST rule). It just seems to be an opposing dilemma.

I read a saying once that said something like this. If I can't live up to the standards I lower them so I don't feel guilty.

[Eugenia Gabrielov]

Originally Posted by Steve W

Ken, all rules are in the interest of someone. It just seems that if they are not in "my best interest" then they can be discarded.

To be truthful I am a bit surprised by some of the answers especially mentors. We are suppose to be setting examples and yet we are condoning breaking rules. Can a mentor honestly expect a student to hear them say we must follow FIRST's rules but it is OK to break a venues (which is also a FIRST rule). It just seems to be an opposing dilemma.

I read a saying once that said something like this. If I can't live up to the standards I lower them so I don't feel guilty.

With all due respect, I as a student disagree. My mentors are role models for me not because they blindly follow rules, but because they teach me to think them through. One mentor said a few posts ago that she breaks the rule so that her students stay just a bit healthier. That mentors care about us that much, it means a lot: it shows us that we are valued as friends, not just as students.

[Kims Robot]

Steve,
Personally, I look at every rule just as I do every persons actions. I try very hard to see the reasoning behind it. To me, FIRST rules make sense, they are for safety, for the excitement of the game, to keep the playing field level amongst all teams.

I even understand that venues need to make money to survive, and that FIRST has no control over this. I understand the "no bringing food in" rule, because they need to make money. Its capitalism at its finest. Most of us know that a hot dog, a roll, and a napkin doesnt cost $4.50. But its the law of supply and demand. If they have the only supply, they can charge whatever the demand will support. BUT, when the rule is made, and no thought is given to the fact that the building is open 4 hours later than they are, the reason for the rule falls away. Now it is just a rule for a rule's sake. Its not because people arent allowed to eat in the venue, 4 hours ago, they were eating in the venue. Boston had the same rule, but they were open as long as we were there, so I sent my team outside to eat if they had a problem paying the price. In FLR I tried to get "permission" from FIRST, but it was still a rule I was breaking.

This is just one example. I dont break many rules on purpose, but as I have said before, I try and use common sense. But in the end I am human, and I am going to watch out for my team. To me, they come above any consequences I would have to endure. Fine me $1000, if that means my team has food and water while they are doing something they love, so be it.

For those that answer "we are FIRSTers, we should never break rules", have you never in your life broken a rule? Or will you just not admit it in front of your team, your students, or the CD community?

To be truthful I am a bit surprised by some of the answers especially mentors.

And Im really sorry to dissappoint, but Im human, not a god, I am not going to pretend I am perfect, but I do have a brain with which I try to reason.

[Ryan Dognaux]

Originally Posted by Steve W

Can a mentor honestly expect a student to hear them say we must follow FIRST's rules but it is OK to break a venues

Yes, they can. If anything, I would only look up to that mentor more for thinking things through and realizing how much money would be saved by not wasting it and planning ahead. A mentor that saves me time and money and gives me the best experience possible is a great mentor.

Originally Posted by Kims Robot

And Im really sorry to dissappoint, but Im human, not a god, I am not going to pretend I am perfect, but I do have a brain with which I try to reason.

Exactly. In my opinion, it's common sense not to pay that much money for food that you could get a lot cheaper somewhere else. If that means you have to break a rule to do it, then so be it. We're not all autonomous robots who are preprogrammed to always follow rules blindly regardless of what they are.

[MikeDubreuil]

I agree with Kim.

I think myself as a mentor I hold a tier based system for what rules I’d like to follow. Whether I follow or break a rule depends upon a choice that I make after weighing the options on my tier based value system.

For instance, I have never violated a FIRT rule that would give my team a competitive advantage out on the field. That means no extra weight, no extra time, no onboard super computers, etc. However, if someone on my team was bringing food or drink into the venue I would look the other way.

Like Kim, I have real problems with the venues that have certain food and drink policies. The Manchester Regional- I can’t stand it. Nothing frosts me more than being told I can’t bring food and drink into a facility when they don’t have food and drink available. Drinking from the water fountain is not an alternative; I might as well drink from the toilet in the bathroom. Those of us with germ phobias prefer reasonable options. The Boston Regional had a vendor always open selling drinks and pre-made sandwiches. I thought that was great.

Sometimes in Boston I will run red lights. Not because I enjoy breaking the law. If an ambulance is trying to rush someone to the hospital and the only way he is making it through the intersection is if I run the red light. Should I decrease the person’s likelihood of survival because I don’t want to break the law? No way.

[KenWittlief]

Originally Posted by Steve W

Ken, all rules are in the interest of someone. It just seems that if they are not in "my best interest" then they can be discarded.

To be truthful I am a bit surprised by some of the answers especially mentors. We are suppose to be setting examples and yet we are condoning breaking rules. Can a mentor honestly expect a student to hear them say we must follow FIRST's rules but it is OK to break a venues (which is also a FIRST rule). It just seems to be an opposing dilemma.

There are many people who get through life by taking advantage of other people. They know they are doing this, it is the path they have chosen.

Telling me I have to allow them to take advantage of me, because they 'have a rule' or 'its our policy' carries as much weight with me as 'because I said so'.

We pride our selves on freedom, independance and self reliance. If someone else creates a situation where they hold all the cards, the game is rigged from the start. They are not playing fair, why would I be required to go along with it?

[Steve W]

Originally Posted by KenWittlief

There are many people who get through life by taking advantage of other people. They know they are doing this, it is the path they have chosen.

Telling me I have to allow them to take advantage of me, because they 'have a rule' or 'its our policy' carries as much weight with me as 'because I said so'.

We pride our selves on freedom, independance and self reliance. If someone else creates a situation where they hold all the cards, the game is rigged from the start. They are not playing fair, why would I be required to go along with it?

You always have the option of not going or eating outside of the venue. Do you realize that if all teams planning on going to an event refused to sign up till the issue was dealt with then something might happen. As long as teams continue to go then FIRST will have no reason or data to back up claims.

I was just wondering how many of those complaining of high prices still go to the theatre or sporting event and pay the same prices (or higher)?

[Cynette]

Originally Posted by Steve W

...To be truthful I am a bit surprised by some of the answers especially mentors. We are suppose to be setting examples and yet we are condoning breaking rules. Can a mentor honestly expect a student to hear them say we must follow FIRST's rules but it is OK to break a venues (which is also a FIRST rule). It just seems to be an opposing dilemma...

I think you've touched on one of the great conundrums of life. Most of us are very good at following the rules of the "game" no matter what game it is. Football, FIRST, chess, monopoly... if you don't follow the rules, you are called a cheat.

But in the game of life (real life, not the board game) we are ingrained with the need to push the limits of what is permitted. How many times is a toddler told NO! for doing the same action over and over? As we grow we learn when it is ok to bend the rules and when it is not. When is a lie a "little white lie" and when is it a "big fat lie"? Aren't they both lies? Why is sarcasm ok, when for the most part it is actually just plain old lying? My children were actually told by the driver's ed teachers how much they could speed without getting caught. Does that make it ok to speed? It's all so confusing.

And then suddenly we are adults and in FIRST get this magical title of "Mentor." Do we suddenly become better people? Do we now have all the answers? I think most mentors are hooked on FIRST because they can share some of their expertise with the next generation. I doubt that FIRST would have very many mentors if "Moral Compass" was substituted for the title of "Mentor." I think we get it that we need to be role models in general, but as humans, to me the most important part of being a role model is being able to apologize for screwing up.

I like the idea of GP for this reason, it reminds us of the human factor, that we are all trying to find a way to get along, to compete fairly, to achieve common goals...to make our grandmothers proud!

[KenWittlief]

Originally Posted by Steve W

I was just wondering how many of those complaining of high prices still go to the theatre or sporting event and pay the same prices (or higher)?

This is spilling into the thread that was split off - these venues that FIRST uses for 9am to ~7PM 3 day events are normally used for 2.5 hr basketball games or other short duration programs.

I like hot dogs - I have no problem nibbling on a $4 hot dog for a snack between meals every once in a while, if I have 3 decent meals and the rest of my day I can follow my normal eating habits

but if I am 'stuck' in a building for 10 hours a day, 3 days in a row, then typical conscession stand food doenst cut it - not even close.

When I goto a movie I have no sense of guilt whatsoever if I walk in with a bag of M&Ms in my pocket - or not. Its a 90 minute movie - no big deal.

But I know I can buy a pound of M&Ms at Wegmans for $2.50, or I can buy a 1 oz bag of M&Ms at a regional for $1 - and Im going to be there for 3 days....

Hmmmmm....... 6.4 times the price per pound at the event... what to do, what to do?