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View Poll Results: Support the RIAA or not?
YES, I DO SUPPORT. 9 15.52%
NO, I DO NOT SUPPORT. 49 84.48%
Voters: 58. You may not vote on this poll

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Unread 22-08-2006, 15:46
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Re: Pirates... ARGH!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Noah Kleinberg
I think that what the recording industry doesn't understand is that many people use P2P services for their music because there isn't a good alternative. $20 dollars for a CD is ridiculous, and $1 a song isn't that much better. It also doesn't help that online music services put copy protection in the music. Once music is available at a reasonable price, without copy protection, and at higher quality than it's available for free, many people will stop using P2P networks for their music and start buying it.
Even though I disapprove of the way the RIAA handles many issues, I still obey the law. I don't use P2P networks to pirate music or applications. In fact, I've never even installed a P2P client on any of my computers.

I think a lot of people miss the point in this. If you don't want to pay for something, and you take/download/smuggle/pirate/etc. it anyway, you are stealing - regardless of what it is. Simply put, if you do not like how overpriced music is, then don't buy (or illegally download) it! Go out and listen to Creative Commons licensed music, or music that is legally free to download.

As many said, this is capitalism. And the best way to make a statement in capitalism is not to steal things ilegally, but it is to simply to boycott the goods or services being offered.

If you want some good websites that offer free (for personal, non-broadcast use only) or Creative Commons-licensed music, try some of these:

http://www.ccmixter.org/
http://www.freeplaymusic.com/
http://www.ocremix.org/
http://www.newgrounds.com/audio/
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Unread 22-08-2006, 15:48
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Re: RIAA or no RIAA?

Quote:
If it were a great idea to distribute free music, why don't the artists do it? On ITunes there are free downloads every week that are legal. That is one way of getting your music out there. If the artists want to give their music away for free they will but they know if they do that they might end up at Walmart as greeters instead of touring, making money.
Well actually, there are alot of musicians that do give their music away for free. Take a look at Ampcast and MP3 Unsigned. Those are DJs and artists that produce music in supportive of free media and are not greedy enough to charge for their productions.

Most of these artists make their money from live performances and leave recorded music open for all to enjoy.
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Unread 22-08-2006, 15:54
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Re: RIAA or no RIAA?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Al Skierkiewicz
In 1973 an LP from the Columbia Record Club, was about $12.99 plus shipping. That was roughly 24 times the cost of a loaf of bread or a gallon of gasoline. Price should not enter into a discussion like this. That was when the minimum wage was $1.65/hr. and a $400 week was a good wage.
Then those were overpriced too... Production costs, if anything, have most likely gone down since then anyway.

Quote:
Even though I disapprove of the way the RIAA handles many issues, I still obey the law. I don't use P2P networks to pirate music or applications. In fact, I've never even installed a P2P client on any of my computers.
I agree, it's more of an excuse that people use for stealing music than a reason that they do.
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Unread 22-08-2006, 16:07
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Re: RIAA or no RIAA?

I see the points from both sides on this one. I understand that people that depend on their music as a source of income are hurt by illegal copies...but I think that they are just as hurt by the sheer number of people that take a cut out of the money made off of their work product.

What people don't realize is that there is a healthy living that can be made without being signed, and ultimately not being under the RIAA's wing. There is a local band in Chicago (7th Heaven) that has been unsigned since the late 80's. They have taken a complete grass roots approach to their music and they clear $250k a year. On top of playing shows, they also run a local recording studio and web site company. They make their money by living their music. They often play multiple shows per week (at one point they had 7 shows in 6 days). Sure they have roadies and merchandise people that get their cuts, but ultimately, they are smart about the way they do their business.

Here is some recent RIAA news that really ticks me off. Personally, I use tabs found online as a jump start for learning a song. Maybe there's a chord that's giving me trouble, or maybe I know the chords, but there's a simple solo that I can't quite place. That's when I go to the online tabs. Anybody that's ever used online tabs knows that the quality of 75% of the tabs found are sub-par, so it's tough to use them without using some creativity and intuition. If there's something that I want to learn note for note, or is clearly too complex for tabs (i.e. Dream Theater), I will go out and buy the book.

Playing other people's music inspires me to become a better musician. I see tabs as a way for people wanting inspiration to get it from their peers. If someone has a stellar ear and can accuratly transcribe what they hear, then what's the harm in that? Now, if they buy the book and transcribe based on that, I see that as copyright infringement. I view that as translating a book to another language and making it freely available.

What's next? Requiring a band to obtain a license to play a song live?
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Unread 22-08-2006, 16:40
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Re: RIAA or no RIAA?

Please people, do not call downloading music stealing. Again, downloading music is NOT stealing, nor pirating. I don't see any parrots and peg legs, do you?

Downloading music is copyright infringement, calling it anything other would be a strawman's argument.

You steal CDs from the brick and mortar music store, you commit copyright infringement online.
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Unread 22-08-2006, 18:57
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Re: RIAA or no RIAA?

The point consistently brought up in this discussion is that pirating music is stealing, or that pirating can deprive people of their income, etc...

Lets clarify something....

In a pure free-market system, you cannot guarantee people anything, except for the value of the currency that they use. You cannot garuntee housing arrangements, income, money, working conditions or even a job. Winds that blow in the the world of pure capitalism are unpredictable, and can violently change situations. The good thing is that this tends to create enormous wealth and prosperity, especially for those who understand how it works, the bad part is that there are no guarantees and people can lose out.

When you advocate against ideas or technologies (like pirating), because "someone might lose out, or this band will lose lots of money", than you are advocating for something other than capitalism. We can debate the merits of pure capitalism as an economic model, but that is a separate issue.

The term "intellectual property" is one of the more outrageous terms that has arisen, simply because the entire thing is bunk. Ideas are nothing without the tools, materials, workers, testing, business plans, production lines, or anything else to fruition. Ideas by themselves are worthless.

I've had literally hundreds (I have written documentation of many of them) of really cool ideas. Anything from mechanical inventions, to household products, to power tools, to movie plots. And what have I done with the majority of them? Nothing. But sure enough, given 5-6 years, someone else will independently come up with the same idea, but they'll actually go and do something with it, creating a business, hiring workers, selling the product, and bringing that idea to fruition.

Now, I've probably been deprived of hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of "intellectual property" over the years. Dang it, those were my ideas! But you know what? Even if I did go through the process of copyrighting and suing anyone for infringing on my idea, I'd probably take it with me to the grave, because I would have done nothing with it. And so countless people are deprived of the fruits from that idea.

So what about movies? Millions of dollars are pumped into those ideas. They've gone through countless man hours worth of work, shouldn't they be able to profit? The answer to this rhetorical question really depends on what you think about free-markets.

Free-markets guarantee nothing, and can be quite brutal. If those movie studios lose millions because they invested in a bad business model that was outpaced by technology, than the true capitalist would be saying "tough break, better luck next time". Those that do not fully trust the the idea of free-markets will want things to be more fair, and will try to artificially control and legislate matters so that no one gets hurt, no one loses out, and no one has to suffer.

Capitalism insures nothing to anyone, save for the legitimacy of it's currency (even that made the founders of our Constitution choke). The only crime you can really commit against this economic model is stealing. Stealing is depriving people of their physical money or their physical property. "Intellectual Property" doesn't exist, so it cannot be stolen. You cannot "own" an idea. In fact, I would go as far as to argue that there is no such thing as an original idea, because in some way, all ideas or thoughts that have ever been thought were derived or inspired from others. Ideas are worthless.

The only thing that has any value in the world of capitalism, is physical property.


Do you really believe in capitalism?

-Chris
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Last edited by Cyberguy34000 : 22-08-2006 at 19:37.
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Unread 22-08-2006, 19:32
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Re: RIAA or no RIAA?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve W
Basically if you reproduce any copyrighted/ patented material without the express written permission of those holding the rights then you are a basic common thief. There is no other way to look at it.
(bolding mine)

This is a side note, but it is quite difficult to have a civil debate when one side is saying that there are no other legimate viewpoints or using ad hominem arguements.

The ideas being discussed here are relatively new, and there is lots of room for discussion and interpretation of facts. Very few things are actually well established by either side, and so there are many ways that we can discuss and argue about the issue. But can we please not resort to this?
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Last edited by Cyberguy34000 : 22-08-2006 at 19:34.
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Unread 22-08-2006, 21:36
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Re: RIAA or no RIAA?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyberguy34000
(bolding mine)

This is a side note, but it is quite difficult to have a civil debate when one side is saying that there are no other legimate viewpoints or using ad hominem arguements.

The ideas being discussed here are relatively new, and there is lots of room for discussion and interpretation of facts. Very few things are actually well established by either side, and so there are many ways that we can discuss and argue about the issue. But can we please not resort to this?

There is nothing new in this discussion. What I bring to the table is the true fact. If you don't believe me then I suggest that you go to the RIAA and show them all of your illegal music, tell them where you got it, sign a statement of the facts and then see if you don't go to jail or get heavily fined. If it were not theft then there would be no debate as I would agree with everyone else. If I am wrong, please show me the law that protects you when you take and copy copyrighted or patented material. Some of those that have opposed my thoughts here have admitted that it might not be legal.
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Unread 22-08-2006, 21:43
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Re: RIAA or no RIAA?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve W
There is nothing new in this discussion. What I bring to the table is the true fact. If you don't believe me then I suggest that you go to the RIAA and show them all of your illegal music, tell them where you got it, sign a statement of the facts and then see if you don't go to jail or get heavily fined.
Feel free to provide the laws that clearly define music copywrites and EXACTLY what can and cannot be done with media that has not been debated about in the past few years. This subject is still being debated.

This was the exact point Cyberguy was making. Opposing sides cannot win anyone's mind by telling them that there is nothing more to discuss and that only one sides' views are correct.

You said earlier that "As you will learn, the "majority" is not always right. "

Perhaps you may also learn that "right" is a relative term. What is more important is what people agree upon, because people united can force change.




The purpose this debate and poll was to provide different points of view and different opinions to influence thinking. One side telling another that they are the only ones who are right will not change anything.

I encourage you all to find more evidence to support your opinion of what is right and wrong. That way, this debate can continue as a healthy discussion on the morality of marketted data and copyrights.
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Last edited by thegathering : 22-08-2006 at 21:59.
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Unread 22-08-2006, 22:44
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Re: RIAA or no RIAA?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve W
If it were not theft then there would be no debate as I would agree with everyone else.
http://www.securityfocus.com/columnists/175
Quote:
New ads announced by MPAA President Jack Valente impress the idea that "copying is stealing" and that someone who burns MP3s is no different from those who slip a CD under their shirt at the local Tower Records.

But technically, file sharing is not theft.

A number of years ago, the U.S. Supreme Court dealt with a man named Dowling, who sold "pirated" Elvis Presley recordings, and was prosecuted for the Interstate Transportation of Stolen Property. The Supremes did not condone his actions, but did make it clear that it was not "theft" -- but technically "infringement" of the copyright of the Presley estate, and therefore copyright law, and not anti-theft statutes, had to be invoked.

So "copying" is not "stealing" but can be "infringing." That doesn't have the same sound bite quality as Valente's position.
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Unread 23-08-2006, 01:11
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Re: RIAA or no RIAA?

Further to Mike's citation, here's the decision (Dowling v. United States, 473 U.S. 207 (1985)) in the Dowling case; it was a 6-3 decision, so clearly there's no unanimity on this issue.

Most importantly, the court held that "the statutorily defined property rights of a copyright holder have a character distinct from the possessory interest of the owner of simple 'goods, wares, [or] merchandise,' interference with copyright does not easily equate with theft, conversion, or fraud."

This decision represents case law, which would protect you against allegations of theft in a music-copying case. But while their marketing campaign may call it theft, they're not alleging theft in their lawsuits—and this decision offers no protection for copyright infringement.

Last edited by Tristan Lall : 23-08-2006 at 01:14.
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Unread 23-08-2006, 11:42
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Re: RIAA or no RIAA?

I stand corrected. "Infringing" on copyright law is still breaking the law.
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Unread 23-08-2006, 17:30
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Re: RIAA or no RIAA?

Most of these copyright laws are new, starting with the DMCA. For the overreaching severity of these laws, there was not nearly enough input from the public on them, and they were rushed through pretty quickly. There was very little to no debate about the issue. Creating new crimes, outlawing technology, hurting consumers... These are some pretty drastic effects from a relatively small number of laws that affect everyone, and yet were rushed through without much debate or discussion from the people. It was just something they were forced to accept.

While it may have started with the DMCA, new bills are constantly being proposed that will take away our rights under the presumption that we might be getting around laws that we never had a say in creating. Congress is supposed to represent the will of the people, so why would an overwhelmingly strong majority of people break the laws that were created in their name, the name of the people? This dissenting majority and their number will only grow with time and frustration.

We're not here to debate what the current legal codes, statutes or supreme court decisions are, we're here to debate the issue itself. Because ultimately, if we we live in a true democracy, the laws should reflect the will of the people, and act according to the consensus of what we as the people dictate.

If the will of the people (the majority) says that a harmful law should be struck down and abolished, shouldn't our democracy abide?


-Chris
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Unread 23-08-2006, 19:02
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Re: RIAA or no RIAA?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyberguy34000
Most of these copyright laws are new, starting with the DMCA. ... These are some pretty drastic effects from a relatively small number of laws that affect everyone, and yet were rushed through without much debate or discussion from the people. It was just something they were forced to accept.

While it may have started with the DMCA, new bills are constantly being proposed that will take away our rights under the presumption that we might be getting around laws that we never had a say in creating. Congress is supposed to represent the will of the people, so why would an overwhelmingly strong majority of people break the laws that were created in their name, the name of the people? This dissenting majority and their number will only grow with time and frustration.

If the will of the people (the majority) says that a harmful law should be struck down and abolished, shouldn't our democracy abide?
-Chris
Interesting that you should reference the DCMA which is a law passed in 1998 as a direct result of our participation in international treaties through the World Intellectual Properties Organization. It has nothing to do with copyright infringement but does provide protection for ISPs and universities that act as their own ISP when copyrighted material is downloaded and or stored on their equipment. It also makes it illegal for someone to circumvent anti-copy protection in any form (including writing and distributing software to crack the locks) and it provides for the Register of Copyrights to examine and recommend changes to allow for distance learning without affecting copyrighted material or the rights of the originators of the material.

Yes the laws are passed by a relatively small group of people but that is the way our government works. I doubt that the debate over this subject and the final passing of the bills was done in a relatively short amount of time. You claim a "overwhelmingly strong majority" of law breakers but that is not really true is it? Would you say that 200 million people in this country are making copies of CDs? Or is it only the strong people who copy? What is more accurate is the majority of the people you know are breaking the law. I submit that is much less than a million. As to striking down the law just because a bunch of people say it should be struck down is justs plain wrong. We depend on the people who are running the country to examine each issue, decide it's merit and then make an informed decision. If you want a crack at the process, let's give it a try. I will take the place of the opposition in congress. You try and make a law that covers what you want to do. Now to be fair, you have to examine as many of the outcomes as you can think of. "What happens if I word this bill this way? Who will benefit and who will be hurt? Who will be hurt very badly?" Now you have to be honest and not just consider your own little world. You can't just think about what is happening now, but do some crystal ball gazing and see what your bill will be like in the future. You must consider all the people involved, artists, engineers, support people, truck drivers, retail stores, marketing, etc. Now it wouldn't be fair to make you think this up by yourself or overnight. Let's say you have the weekend to think about it, post on Monday morning. Get together with TheGathering or whoever else you want to pull in and then let Steve and myself have a day or two to shoot holes in your bill. Hard facts now, statistics, usage, revenues, etc. Fair enough?
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Unread 23-08-2006, 20:07
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Steve W has a reputation beyond reputeSteve W has a reputation beyond reputeSteve W has a reputation beyond reputeSteve W has a reputation beyond reputeSteve W has a reputation beyond reputeSteve W has a reputation beyond reputeSteve W has a reputation beyond reputeSteve W has a reputation beyond reputeSteve W has a reputation beyond reputeSteve W has a reputation beyond reputeSteve W has a reputation beyond repute
Re: RIAA or no RIAA?

I would love to help out on this exercise. I think that there have been many who would like to help you design the bill. Seeing that the majority of people can see it through your eyes, it should almost be a snap for you to do.

On a side note. It has been stated that the government should do what the majority of people want. I believe that the government should more so protect the rights of those that are in the minority. Just because there are fewer people, should they become trod on as the majority marches over them? If so, where would we be today?
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