YMTC - Manufacturing

[eugenebrooks]

Originally Posted by Jack Jones

FIRST Fundamentalists on the day after Kick-off?

I think that Jack has it right here.

Sensible engineers do not design from first principles on every project they work on. They stand on and re-use the fruits of earlier design activities. This is the meaning of the word "design" in rule 16 and this is the process that we should be engaging students in. Teams are not restricted to engaging in the design process in this manner, however, they may re-design the wheel if they want.

Rule 15 makes this interpretation of rule 16 clear.

Don't forget, we are always admonished to not "lawyer" the rules!
This applies as equally to attempts to produce restrictions that don't exist as it applies to doing away with restrictions that do exist.

This, of course, is modulo the fact that this years rules haven't been published yet. It could, in fact, be the case that we get to chip our robots out of stone this year. That could be fun...

[KenWittlief]

Originally Posted by eugenebrooks

I think that Jack has it right here.

Sensible engineers do not design from first principles on every project they work on. They stand on and re-use the fruits of earlier design activities.

...It could, in fact, be the case that we get to chip our robots out of stone this year. That could be fun...

You have it exactly right! We dont have time to teach HS students about boring FIRST principles: Mass, acceleration, force, energy, impulse, power, torque, metal fatigue, shear stress

when we can re use the work of someone else who already did all that hard math stuff for us 8 years ago

no time to waste, there are giant plastic trophies at stake here!

[JaneYoung]

Originally Posted by KenWittlief

Mass, acceleration, force, energy, impulse, power, torque, metal fatigue, shear stress

There is a lot of discussion in the technical forums here in CD regarding these principles, generated by students with input from the technical mentors. I see this every day, year round.

CD has had a lot of great stuff going on this summer in lots of areas, animation, websites, and programming as well. Team organization: fundraising, handbooks, travel as well.

The 6 week FIRST build session is an opportunity for engineers, teachers, students, and NEMs to come together and build. The robot is an obvious result of the build. The program and people may not be as obvious but they are equally as important.

The principles mentioned are taught by the teachers in the schools and can be enhanced, expanded, shown in a hands-on application by the engineers working with the teams. We can't turn off inspiration and recognition, development and learning with a switch. It is an on-going process. If it were not, there would be no need for CD except for 6 weeks out of the year.
Jane

[Billfred]

Originally Posted by KenWittlief

You have it exactly right! We dont have time to teach HS students about boring FIRST principles: Mass, acceleration, force, energy, impulse, power, torque, metal fatigue, shear stress

when we can re use the work of someone else who already did all that hard math stuff for us 8 years ago

no time to waste, there are giant plastic trophies at stake here!

(Dare I note which trophies are the really big ones?)

Ken, I see where you're going here. Eight seasons ago, IFI wasn't in the KOP, Andy Baker was only in his second season with the TechnoKats, the highest team number was 336, and nobody had played Stairway to Heaven backwards in the hopes of finding a game hint.

Why do I bring this up? Over the years, the game will change. The arm on Ockham that hoisted our tetras probably wouldn't have done so well hoisting Bob in 2004. The drivetrain we tried on Chomp this year would've probably resulted in our butts getting kicked in 2003. Zip ties dragging on the carpet this year would've resulted in a funny look, while last year they proved essential for many. 71's infamous 2002 machine would be laughed out of the inspection area for several reasons (file cards, 5' expanding rule, no flopbots, take your pick). While you can steal the basic concepts from past years' robots, you can only be so effective with them. At some point, you're going to have to fire up Inventor (or Pro/E, or SolidWorks, or...you get the idea) and create something nobody's ever seen before. Nobody had a system in their storage room to shoot a lightweight ball from twenty feet out, or a sure-fire method to climbing a ramp that steep.

I suppose the bottom line is this: While there's a lot of borrowing past concepts, there's also plenty of room for folks to innovate, inspire, and shock the heck out of us on Saturday afternoon.

[Jack Jones]

It’s not that we don’t have the time to teach first principals; it’s more that we (FIRST) don’t need to. Why should we re-invent the classroom? That’s not our job. That stuff is comparatively easy. It’s all down in black and white in the textbooks.

I have seen many book smart engineers who can’t turn a wrench without reciting “leftie-loosie”- never had an original thought - and can’t get beyond what they’ve been taught. I don’t want any part of producing a fresh batch of them.

I want my kids to learn how to get the job done, and to get it done right, rather than to show that it worked on paper. I’d like to think I know more about momentum and impulse than Tiger Woods. But do I really? We have engineers at TARDEC who’ve been taught all there is to know about metal fatigue and shear. So, explain to me why it's the guys on the shop floor who know when a part will fail. There’s a difference between learning and knowing. The latter is where I choose to invest the six weeks we have.

But this tread is supposed about manufacturing rules. Isn't it a shame when the rules work to paint us into a corrner?

[eugenebrooks]

I think that there is lots of room to teach all of these things,
and we do, while making use of the design of a mechanism
from a prior year if it worked well and applies to the current
seasons game. We go through the design in detail, and there
is no shortage of learning opportunities for the students as a
result. Additionally, there has never been a shortage of entirely
new mechanisms to design and build in any given year, and we
stay very busy during the six week build period as a result.

Eugene

Originally Posted by KenWittlief

You have it exactly right! We dont have time to teach HS students about boring FIRST principles: Mass, acceleration, force, energy, impulse, power, torque, metal fatigue, shear stress

when we can re use the work of someone else who already did all that hard math stuff for us 8 years ago

no time to waste, there are giant plastic trophies at stake here!