Wikipedia defies China's censors! :)

[David55]

Originally Posted by KenWittlief

you are talking about information from the government, usually information regarding the actions of the government, or information that it deems vital to national security.

China restricts access to all information: information from the government, information from the citizens, information from other governments, other citizens, universities, private businesses, and even history itself.

The rights of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness do not exist in China. The right of a free presss does not exist. The right to associate or peaceable assemble does not exist. The right to choose your own destiny, your career, to travel where you wish, all are forbidden.

I think what you have described better represents North Korea. To the best of my knowledge, China does have some freedom. People in China do travel ( but most of the population is too poor and can't afford it ), people can choose their destiny, their career. They can do what makes them happy (with a few limitations of course.)
On the other hand, North Korea is a prison lead by a madman. No coming in or out, all food is provided by the government, children belong to the leading political party...very similar to George Orwell's description of Oceania.

David

[thegathering]

Originally Posted by David55

I think what you have described better represents North Korea. To the best of my knowledge, China does have some freedom. People in China do travel ( but most of the population is too poor and can't afford it ), people can choose their destiny, their career. They can do what makes them happy (with a few limitations of course.)

On the other hand again, we have Tiananmen Square, in which ~3000 students died from the government trying to quell a simple protest. China censors news, media, and the internet, something that the US government does not.

It is true that there are captitalist sectors to bring revenue into China, but they're still subject to censorship and the lack of freedoms that we as Americans have.

[Madison]

Originally Posted by thegathering

China censors news, media, and the internet, something that the US government does not.

Sure we do. We call it the FCC.

Originally Posted by M. Krass

Sure we do. We call it the FCC.

yeah... they don't do too much censoring, more of politely "asking" shows to keep certain obscenities out of their programming. However, they "ask" in the way of threatening lawsuits if the show/radio doesn't apply.

[KenWittlief]

Originally Posted by David55

I think what you have described better represents North Korea. To the best of my knowledge, China does have some freedom. People in China do travel

I worked with an engineer who grew up in China, and came here as a student. He decided to stay. When he was a child the government decided what classes he would take, what school he would attend, and what his assigned career would be.

He was not allowed to travel, inside China or out, without written permission. Every aspect of his life was controlled until he left.

He is a little younger than me, I would guess he was born in 1960. Things may have improved a little, but not much.

In China people are imprisoned for speaking against official government actions or policy. That is censorship.

There is no US government representative who review and censors what our media is allowed to print or broadcast on the evening news.

Having a list of 4 words (it use to be 7) that you cannot say on TV is not censorship.

American companies that are working with the Chinese governemt have set up gated communities. The company builds the factory, a school, stores, a clinic, and the community is walled in. Entire families live together inside the walls. They are not allowed to leave, no one can come in to visit. If you dont want to work there anymore your entire family must leave.

The standard of living those 'workers' have is lower than the people in US prisions. Im not saying these are prison camps, but its very close.

[Madison]

Originally Posted by KenWittlief

Having a list of 4 words (it use to be 7) that you cannot say on TV is not censorship.

How long must that list be before it is censorship, Ken? 10 words? 100?

The FCC and other parts of our government engage in and codify censorship regularly. Your acceptance of their moral ideology does not mean that we're not being censored; it means only that you aren't offended by it.

I am.

[thegathering]

Originally Posted by M. Krass

The FCC and other parts of our government engage in and codify censorship regularly. Your acceptance of their moral ideology does not mean that we're not being censored...

That sounds to me like a conspiracy theory. Our government doesn't control our media, the media controls our media. Or maybe I'm just being optomistic.

[Madison]

Originally Posted by thegathering

That sounds to me like a conspiracy theory. Our government doesn't control our media, the media controls our media. Or maybe I'm just being optomistic.

You're not being optimistic so much as ignorant to the history of the United States and its role in censoring the information it and the 'free' media makes available to its population, both now and in the past.

[KenWittlief]

The US government cannot censor our media, because that would require every broadcast be reviewed by a government representative before the broadcast happens, and any objectionable material is removed. That is what happens in China.

In the US the FCC has regulations and imposes fines for content and expressions that are considered lewd and vulgar, but they do not censor the content, they have the authority to impose fines and penalties after the fact.

H. Stearn has proven that, if you are willing to pay the fines you can say whatever you want. In his case he has made more money by being obscene and paying the fines. He has never spent a day in prison for saying (*@# or @(#&$&# or even for saying {(&&*!+=;>~%*@+! on the radio.

But what China is doing with Wikipedia is not about obscenity or vulgarity, it is about controlling what anyone is allow to say or read regarding any aspect of the Chinese government.

[Madison]

Originally Posted by KenWittlief

The US government cannot censor our media, because that would require every broadcast be reviewed by a government representative before the broadcast happens, and any objectionable material is removed. That is what happens in China.

In the US the FCC has regulations and imposes fines for content and expressions that are considered lewd and vulgar, but they do not censor the content, they have the authority to impose fines and penalties after the fact.

H. Stearn has proven that, if you are willing to pay the fines you can say whatever you want. In his case he has made more money by being obscene and paying the fines. He has never spent a day in prison for saying (*@# or @(#&$&# or even for saying {(&&*!+=;>~%*@+! on the radio.

But what China is doing with Wikipedia is not about obscenity or vulgarity, it is about controlling what anyone is allow to say or read regarding any aspect of the Chinese government.

You've provided myriad examples of why censorship in China is more hurtful to its population than the censorship that takes place in the United States, but what I haven't yet seen is any explanation as to makes it different.

Your assertion is that China censors every word uttered on its television stations, over its airwaves and written in its print and that because the United States fines for the use of some words, arrests people for the use of others and prohibits us from speaking about some smaller amount of topics makes us different; that it makes us free.

The United States gives implicit support to censorship, both by its domestic actions to curb certain forms of speech and by its inaction in China. Dollars, not democracy, are the guiding principles of our foreign policy there. Wikipedia's actions are therefore meaningless, really, because it remains the act of an organization that makes no revenue. When McDonald's, Nike and The Gap refuse to do business with China because of its policies of oppressing its population, then maybe there'd be something worth talking about.

[Winged Globe]

Originally Posted by KenWittlief

I worked with an engineer who grew up in China, and came here as a student. He decided to stay. When he was a child the government decided what classes he would take, what school he would attend, and what his assigned career would be.

He was not allowed to travel, inside China or out, without written permission. Every aspect of his life was controlled until he left.

He is a little younger than me, I would guess he was born in 1960. Things may have improved a little, but not much.

A lot of things have actually changed quite a bit since the 60's. Two reasons: the Cultural Revolution failed miserably, and Deng Xiaoping. One really led to the other, and since the 80's there's been a gradual shift towards opening up the country. Regarding your examples, there's no longer preset careers, travel within the country is open, and travel internationally is generally not a problem. When we were trying to set up a visit from my grandmother, we had far more problems with the US Embassy granting a visa than the Chinese government giving a passport.

In fact, most people can live their lives without heavy-handed government control. That's not to say all is right and well: censorship is widespread, news is propaganda, any politics is a very touchy subject, etc. But the bigger issue for most of the country is the economic disparity between cities and rural areas. Their issue is more about the incompetent government rather than the totalitarian government, with corrupt officials, ineffective policies, and the like. These are getting fixed, to some extent, when protests are done skillfully (to the right people in charge, quietly to avoid embarassing the government). A lot of the old conservatives are still in control, so things are slow-moving and it will not be easy, but the direction they're headed in gives cause for optimism.

This change, though, must come from within, and it will have to be a gradual erosion. There's still too much political inertia, pride, and infrastructure for radical changes, but progress is being made. In that regard, Wikipedia can take whatever stance it wants, and everyone can applaud their moral high ground, but it won't help make the change go faster or more effectively. Whether appeasement is any better, I don't know. I do know, though, that it opens a channel into the country that is not ultimately government controlled (unlike state-sponsored companies). I'd think that would count for something in the long run.

And whatever government exists at the end of the day still has to take care of the social and economic issues of 1.3 billion multi-ethnic people living in a hugely varied and disjointed geography without creating a total ecological collapse. Unless it happens to turn into a magical government, they've got generations of work cut out for them.

[KenWittlief]

Originally Posted by Winged Globe

In that regard, Wikipedia can take whatever stance it wants, and everyone can applaud their moral high ground, but it won't help make the change go faster or more effectively. Whether appeasement is any better, I don't know. I do know, though, that it opens a channel into the country that is not ultimately government controlled (unlike state-sponsored companies). I'd think that would count for something in the long run...

an interesting question. By refusing to allow the Chinese government to limit parts of what Wikipedia can make assessable in China, they are in effect creating a total ban on themselves. Wikipedia has taken an all or nothing approach, and the result is nothing.

There was a folk song going around in the 60s about how you cant pave over grass with concrete, because the grass will find cracks and the concrete will eventually buckle, and the grass will grow through, just like you cant pave over the truth - eventually the truth will break through everywhere.

So if Wikipedia had agreed to the Chinese government terms, they would have foot in the door, they might have been a small crack in the pavement. Instead they have in effect totally censored themselves.

[Adam Y.]

Originally Posted by M. Krass

You've provided myriad examples of why censorship in China is more hurtful to its population than the censorship that takes place in the United States, but what I haven't yet seen is any explanation as to makes it different.

Your assertion is that China censors every word uttered on its television stations, over its airwaves and written in its print and that because the United States fines for the use of some words, arrests people for the use of others and prohibits us from speaking about some smaller amount of topics makes us different; that it makes us free.

The United States gives implicit support to censorship, both by its domestic actions to curb certain forms of speech and by its inaction in China. Dollars, not democracy, are the guiding principles of our foreign policy there. Wikipedia's actions are therefore meaningless, really, because it remains the act of an organization that makes no revenue. When McDonald's, Nike and The Gap refuse to do business with China because of its policies of oppressing its population, then maybe there'd be something worth talking about.

Well by it's very nature a liberal government (Not democrat. Liberal as in liberty.) can in fact censor certain types of speech depending if harm is inflicted. Usually, in the United States the forms of censorship that you are complaining about is more of a debate about harm coming about to someone (IE. Can't yell fire in a building). Yeah I know it sounds contradictory but that's what I learned in history class. The second part of your argument would probably entail the collapse of the United States economy so that's a bad idea. Idealistically it would work but not with putting a lot of people out of business. Now if you really wanted to annoy China there is always the 2008 Olympics. Of course I wouldn't want to be caught because I have heard of worst things than censorship (Selling the organs of prisoners that have been executed.)

[Cory]

Originally Posted by KenWittlief

The right to choose your own destiny, your career

The Swiss do nearly the same thing... from the time a child enters their public schooling system, they are placed into various tracks that all but guarentee what their futures will be when it comes to their career.