Christian FIRST Group

[Steve W]

I will at this time close this thread. We do have guidelines on what is acceptable on CD. I believe that this discussion on religion should be closed temporarily to allow things to cool down. When reopened please only discuss the original thought not what is derived from someones post. The question was, quote:

I am not sure how many people would be interested in this but i was just wondering a few things? With the growing numbers in FIRST i have seen an increasing number of Christian FIRSTers. This has given me and Mike of 340 the idea of doing a couple things

1)praying before regionals (just gathering off to the side of the field. Anyone who wants to participate can)

2)possibly organizing the Christians in FIRST into some type of group or even just gathering(suggestions on this would be awesome) thats all we have right now but we are open to suggestions!!


Please do not go off the topic or it will need to be closed again. I will attempt to reopen in 24 hours.

[Steve W]

I have deleted a few posts here to help keep the topic on topic. I will reopen tomorrow morning around 7 am EST. Please try to keep on topic. If issues arise they will be deleted.

[Steve W]

The thread has now been reopened. Thanks in advance for your co-operation.

[anna~marie]

Thanks so much for bringing this up on CD.
I've discussed the idea with many people I know but they have seemed noncommittal. I've always wondered why there wasn't a Christian FIRST group and was always thinking of a way to get one started.
So, on that note, I'd love to be involved!

[Jack Jones]

Originally Posted by Steve W

I will at this time close this thread. We do have guidelines on what is acceptable on CD. I believe that this discussion on religion should be closed temporarily to allow things to cool down. When reopened please only discuss the original thought not what is derived from someones post. The question was, quote:

I am not sure how many people would be interested in this but i was just wondering a few things? With the growing numbers in FIRST i have seen an increasing number of Christian FIRSTers. This has given me and Mike of 340 the idea of doing a couple things

1)praying before regionals (just gathering off to the side of the field. Anyone who wants to participate can)

2)possibly organizing the Christians in FIRST into some type of group or even just gathering(suggestions on this would be awesome) thats all we have right now but we are open to suggestions!!


Please do not go off the topic or it will need to be closed again. I will attempt to reopen in 24 hours.

Steve,

Define "off topic".
Is it your edict that the "topic" is limited to the two bullets you selected from the original post? Or is the part you omitted also open to discussion? - which was:

p.s. if i have done something wrong here or offended anyone we are sorry and please just let us know, but we believe the Lord is calling us to get the Lord's word out!

As to the Postscript: I believe that FIRST should be, and is, a diverse organization. We members should not, and do not, exclude anyone because of race, religion, national origin, etc. If some want to form groups to celebrate their common interests, then I'm all for it. However, if the praying off to the side of the field is an attempt on their part to get the Lord's word out, then that makes the rest of us participants. If it is toward us that the word is aimed, or it is we that the word has gotten to, then we would be perfectly within "our rights" to ask them to cut it out.

I doubt the RCU was formed to encourage me to turn female. Nor do I think Ed's proposed African-American group would expect me to convert. But Christians in FIRST holding services next to the field would be an affront to my chunk of diversity.

[Nate Smith]

Originally Posted by JoeXIII'007

1. Private prayer is a wonderful idea. Just as long as it isn't over a loudspeaker. God can hear people clearly enough.

2. Cool idea, might be useful to start it in myspace or something like that (chain e-mail).

As far as I am concerned, as long as it begins and remains an option and nothing more (ex: Its less of an option if somebody declines the offer and gets a look of even minor dissent, or when offered it is offered in a way that yes is apparently the only answer), its OK.

I personally think for people like me, who once went to church on a regular basis but then due to other callings had to just read the bible and soak in as much as possible, a prayer at/before a regional would be a major spiritual booster, morale boost, etc. Fantastic idea.

-Joe

I can't commit the time right now to actually get anything set up, but if there is someone who wanted to set up a web site for this purpose, I would be willing to provide web hosting space off of my company's hosting plan. If someone wants to register a domain for this and then contact me, I can provide them with the information to do the redirect into the space that I set aside.

[Andy Baker]

Originally Posted by Jack Jones

I doubt the RCU was formed to encourage me to turn female. Nor do I think Ed's proposed African-American group would expect me to convert. But Christians in FIRST holding services next to the field would be an affront to my chunk of diversity.

This is a great point.

We are bound together, being brothers and sisters in FIRST. While we have this bond, we are also diverse. For many, this may be the first time they interact closely with people in a different religion, race or culture.

Obviously, we must repect each other and these differing beliefs. I think that this diversity within FIRST combined with the bond that keeps up passionate about the support and growth of FIRST is one of the important things that keeps this program strong.

I suggest that we continue to support this diversity, as we learn to be better people through this process. At the same time, we should not expect to convert people to become what they are not. We can just communicate the efforts of these organizations, and people can choose to seek more information if they wish.

A good example of this sort of support and communication happened in 2005 when the Jewish Seder was promoted in Atlanta. This effort was done in a non-threatening and mature way, and many people participated.

While we discuss this stuff, let's keep our heads on straight. Open your eyes and look around you. Let's celebrate our common goal while accepting our differences.

Andy Baker

[Steve W]

Originally Posted by Jack Jones

Steve,

Define "off topic".
Is it your edict that the "topic" is limited to the two bullets you selected from the original post? Or is the part you omitted also open to discussion? - which was:

As to the Postscript: I believe that FIRST should be, and is, a diverse organization. We members should not, and do not, exclude anyone because of race, religion, national origin, etc. If some want to form groups to celebrate their common interests, then I'm all for it. However, if the praying off to the side of the field is an attempt on their part to get the Lord's word out, then that makes the rest of us participants. If it is toward us that the word is aimed, or it is we that the word has gotten to, then we would be perfectly within "our rights" to ask them to cut it out.

I doubt the RCU was formed to encourage me to turn female. Nor do I think Ed's proposed African-American group would expect me to convert. But Christians in FIRST holding services next to the field would be an affront to my chunk of diversity.

Jack I am not here to be controversial. I do want people to be able to voice opinions. I also know that this is a sensitive topic. What I would like to see is a calm discussion without slamming from either side. Heated discussions on this topic can blow up real fast. The points that you made in this post are valid and to the point. I did not find them to be against what is requested. Please continue to discuss and keep level heads.

[KenWittlief]

the freedom to assemble and the freedom to associate with whom ever you choose are two of the fundamental rights that we believe all humans are entitled to.

You dont need anyones permission to form a sub-group with people in FIRST who share common interests or ideas or philosophies or religious beliefs, just as you did not need permission from your church to join a FIRST team.

There must be thousands of Christians involved with FIRST. The idea that somehow they must all be kept separated at FIRST events would be absurd :^)

If you feel that associating or organizing gatherings with other FIRST people who share a particular common interest would result in a positive outcome, then go for it!

[GRaduns340]

I also support this idea in that it would be a great way to form a community within FIRST. That's one of the things that I've liked about FIRST, that we can meet new people that share our interests. This is no different in my opinion, and I like the idea of being able to meet with other believers. It would certainly be a great encouragement to some of the Christian FIRSTers who else here is with them in their belief. Great idea, Mike and Dylan.

Originally Posted by Nate Smith

I can't commit the time right now to actually get anything set up, but if there is someone who wanted to set up a web site for this purpose, I would be willing to provide web hosting space off of my company's hosting plan. If someone wants to register a domain for this and then contact me, I can provide them with the information to do the redirect into the space that I set aside.

I am the webmaster for Team 340. I am also working on starting up some business selling sites, so I have some server space available to me as well, but I don't have access to many domains on that space. I could create a site and host it there long enough to do some work on it, then transfer it over. I'd probably need to know the restrictions of the space, though. For example, PHP and MySQL enabled? Space (probably a non-issue)? If you'd like to talk about that, I'd be glad to see what I can get started. I'm on AIM, MSN, ICQ, and Yahoo, so it's virtually impossible not to find an IM that I don't have if you want to talk about that, or just e-mail me, which might be easier with my schedule.

[Jeremiah Johnson]

I can support the forming of this group, as long as no one is excluded and it is not ugraciously promoted. I don't want to be handed a pamphlet, although being Christian in nature, and told that this is an awesome thing. If I were Muslim, Jewish, Hindu, ect ect and handed a pamphlet to join this, I would be mildly offended but would accept that it's just human nature. Of course, not everyone shares the same thought process as me. Some people aren't open-minded and that has to be accepted and taken into account when forming such group. You might get some heckling about it, what will you do about that?

Does this have to vocal prayer? Why not include all faiths in this and have an offsite religious gathering? The basis of which the people have time, together, to pray as a group about the same thing but to their own religious guidelines. Why does it have to be exclusive to Christianity?

There are multiple affiliations around the country that hold prayers at schools and such. I'm familiar with one, ROCK, Reaching Our Campus for the King. My brother just joined and I was not a big fan of it because I don't believe religion belongs in schools. However, religion can coincide with school and FIRST. Just don't make it exclusive to one religion, that's all that I ask.

[Dylan Gramlich]

I am not saying that there can only be a christian group. But i am just simply suggesting the idea, generating ideas, and seeing who would be willing to support the idea. If anyone would like to form another group including a different religion they can but this is just one idea others and myself have discussed.

[slickguy2007]

If you are going to do this I would caution you. FIRST has no religous affiliations and sponsors are aware of this. Praying isn't meant to be harmful to anyone and I am in favor of this, but sponsors may not see it the same way. Sponsors sometimes make it a point to not get involved with anything that is religously affiliated. I am not sure if praying beside the field would be appropriate place to do this because it may give sponsors the wrong idea. Like I said before, I am in favor of this but if this happens you just have to be very careful of where and when you do it. Nobody wants to see FIRST lose sponsors for something as innocent as this. Good luck with getting this started up; I am not Christian myself but my spirit is with you anyways.

[Jaine Perotti]

Originally Posted by Jack Jones

I doubt the RCU was formed to encourage me to turn female. Nor do I think Ed's proposed African-American group would expect me to convert. But Christians in FIRST holding services next to the field would be an affront to my chunk of diversity.

Jack,

Your post does an excellent job conveying my feelings on the matter. Thank you.

Both the RCU and the theoretical African-American group would serve to empower an underrepresented minority in FIRST. Considering that 77% of Americans consider themselves Christian, I don't believe that a Christian FIRST group would be serving the same function as the RCU (women are only about 30% of the engineering work force). In my opinion, the formation of such a group is unnecessary, because there isn't a perceivable bias in the science and engineering fields towards or against certain religions. Comparing religion in FIRST to gender in FIRST is comparing apples to oranges; you can't tell what religion a person is just by looking at them. However, skin color and gender DO make a difference in one's socio-economic status and the way one is perceived by society (and consequently, one's likelihood of becoming an engineer). Such a group wouldn't serve Christians in the same way that the RCU serves women.

However, I am not against the idea of a Christian group which meets privately for the sole purposes of spiritual and social networking (similar to the Jewish Seder held a few years ago). However, to make such a group's presence felt at a competition would cross that boundary, and would undoubtedly make people feel uncomfortable, including myself.

One thing I can always count on while attending a FIRST competition is the fact that I will feel no pressure to become someone who I do not want to be. What makes the diversity found in FIRST great is that we are all united together for a common purpose - promoting the science and technology fields to young people. Introducing a palpable religious element could threaten to topple that unity by making certain members of FIRST feel alienated (those in the minority who are not Christian).

Dylan, if you do choose to form a Christian FIRST group, I would ask that your group conduct itself in such a way that other FIRST participants don't feel like they are being pressured to change their personal beliefs, or feel that they are being alienated (and no, the answer can't be "join, and you won't feel alienated anymore"). I think that this line is easily blurred within Christianity, because part of being a Christian is to spread the word of Jesus.

In short, if your intent is to promote Christianity to other FIRSTers (handing out pamphlets asking people to convert, or making your presence felt to those who do not want to feel it), I ask you to respectfully take it somewhere else. You should form your own group, not associated with FIRST, and do so outside of the FIRST venue.

However, if your intent is just to meet other Christian FIRSTers for social purposes, then I encourage you to form your group. However, please don't hold prayer services on the field, because that would make it appear as if FIRST endorsed Christianity (and non-Christians would feel uncomfortable). If you want to hold a group prayer, perhaps you could hold one in the morning, before matches begin, somewhere outside. People could join if they wanted to, but they could just as easily walk away without feeling pressured. As long as what you do doesn't have an overwhelming presence inside the FIRST venue, I would probably feel comfortable.

What makes FIRST so great to me is that I can look up to any mentor or student, regardless of their religion or political views, and respect them for their contributions to science, technology, FIRST, or their team. When those people choose to publicly associate themselves with a religious belief, it makes it harder for me to view them as role models, because all of a sudden there may be less common ground between us. That is why I usually dislike reading political threads here on Chief Delphi. I hate it when I say to myself, "Oh no, he's not a Republican too, is he?" about someone who I hold respect for. When a role model reveals information about themselves that doesn't pertain to FIRST or it's goals, they may cause people to ignore their positive contributions to FIRST - seeing only the political or religious side of that person.

What makes diversity in FIRST flourish is the fact that no matter where we come from, we can agree on a certain set of moral and social objectives which have been defined by the organization (gracious professionalism, the promotion of science/technology to kids). Our religious beliefs should remain disassociated from FIRST (although that doesn't mean we don't abide by them in FIRST), in the sense that we promote our religious beliefs elsewhere. When participating FIRST, we promote FIRST's values, and when participating in a Church/political rally, we promote our other personal beliefs. The two should not be mixed up, lest one interferes with the other's ability to fulfill it's intended purpose.

Jaine

[woody]

Jaine-
I can understand your point about such a group not performing the same function as the RCU group or other organizations with the goal of giving various minorities within a given group (in this case, engineering) greater opportunities within said group. However, I think Dylan made it clear that this was not his intent:

"1)praying before regionals (just gathering off to the side of the field. Anyone who wants to participate can)

2)possibly organizing the Christians in FIRST into some type of group or even just gathering(suggestions on this would be awesome) thats all we have right now but we are open to suggestions!!"

While you have a valid point that no one should feel pressured to conform to a given set of values or beliefs, this point is rather irrelevant in this discussion since any religious group of any denomination praying off to the side of a venue before an event should in no way be pressuring (or for that matter offensive) to other participants.

However, it would seem that certain comments within this very thread seem to be pressuring Dylan and his teammates to "check their religion at the door" and, in my humble opinion, are actually more inconsiderate and less "politically correct" than the presence of a prayer group at an event.

Thank you
~Woody